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What is TRP's opinion on transgender men and women?

Picnicpanther
November 1, 2013
4 upvotes
/r/PurplePillDebate
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Post Information
Title What is TRP's opinion on transgender men and women?
Author

Picnicpanther
Upvotes 4
Comments 40
Date November 1, 2013 6:06 PM UTC
(12 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1pp9h4/what_is_trps_opinion_on_transgender_men_and_women/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-trps-opinion-on-transgender-men-and-women.286661
https://theredarchive.com/post/286661
Red Pill terms in post
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Top posts by Picnicpanther

Feminism helps men to be happier with themselves.

20 upvotes
October 31, 2013
/r/PurplePillDebate

Comments

[–]angatar_12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

http://i3.minus.com/i5vdnWTJbpEwe.png

This was just posted on The Blue Pill. Apparently there is a Red Pill belief that trans* people are mentally ill, delusional, gold diggers, petty, and self-harming. They're not even worthy of being called humans, being referred to as "it". They're also only valuable when they conform to the Red Pill idea of masculinity- being who they are is simply unacceptable because they are defective.

Of course, that's just the article. You'll find a load more transphobic crap in the comment section. Trans* people are called "its" and "freakshows". Trans* people need to be corrected by throwing unnecessary hardship upon them.

The people who call out the transphobia are downvoted and labelled trolls, and those commenters are highly upvoted. Return Of Kings is a good source of Red Pill content and theory, so I'd like to see The Red Pill defend this.

Edit: I forgot to mention this is for MtF. I don't even want to imagine the contempt these people have for FtM.

[–]mrsamsa10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

From some of the comments made by red pillers in this thread, who suggest that there is no transphobia in the sub, I'm hoping to see a strong backlash against the author and RoK for posting this article.

Hopefully they'll visit the comments section as well and blast the people there for making their movement look bad.

At least, that's what I'd do if I was part of a belief system that I thought wasn't hateful and saw major figures within it making hateful statements. If I didn't argue against it, then I'd have no grounds to criticise people who accused my ideology of being hateful.

[–][deleted] 6 points6 points6 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]mrsamsa5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, it's near impossible to get them to actually define what they believe. So far we've attacked the beliefs explained in their "introduction", their "required readings", their mods' beliefs, their endorsed contributors beliefs, beliefs that are highly upvoted by the community, the main spokesmen and blogs of their community, etc, and apparently none of those things represent red pill.

One guy even told me that red pill has no beliefs or philosophy, and each individual can define it to mean whatever they want.

[–][deleted] 7 points7 points7 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]permajetlag"That Guy"0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

they come from a place of privilege and fight for stasis. They want to go back to a more traditional era.

TRP believes that gender relations have changed with the spread of reliable birth control. They advocate adjusting mating strategies to match the new equilibrium.

[–]angatar_2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What's specifically change, how has it changed, and what's the best "solution" or adjustment for these changes?

[–]permajetlag"That Guy"0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

TRP contends that:

  • The historical link between sex and marriage before reliable birth control meant that women chose providers to marry and had sex with them; thus, being a provider enabled you to have sex.
  • The introduction of relatively reliable birth control reduced the risk of pregnancy for women. With dramatically reduced worries about pregnancy, women in their twenties can be promiscuous ("riding the cock carousel"). Young women can now choose to have sex with whoever they want. Unsurprisingly, they choose to have sex with sexually attractive men, but when their beauty fades ("hitting the wall"), they look for a stable provider ("alpha fucks, beta bucks") to settle down with.

TRP discusses some adjustments to be more attractive ("alpha") to get this casual sex:

  • early sexual and situational escalation ("compliance tests")
  • overriding reluctance ("last-minute resistance") with specific tactics
  • seeing multiple women while being non-committal ("plate-spinning")

Many in TBP contend that substantial elements of these adjustments are manipulation and lead to rape.

A prominent leader of TRP implausibly argues that "sexual strategy is amoral" (from the sidebar: "sexual strategy is amoral. You might stick to your values, but those who have sex .. have sex.")

I do not presume to know the "best solution."

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

my understanding of trp is that is has no opinion on transgenders or homosexuals at all. one of the most important man-o-sphere writers, jack donovan is gay.

trp is about helping straight men get laid with women or have better relationships with women if they want them. its not christian conservatism.

[–][deleted] 12 points12 points12 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 0 points0 points0 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]AcatalepticPolemic6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

TRP isn't an ideology

TRP absolutely is an ideology. From dictionary.com:

the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group.

(emphasis mine)

They have values and beliefs which are generally shared by members of the subreddit, which its constituents believe guides them towards a shared goal (sexual strategy). I mean, they have a required reading list. TRP is undoubtedly an ideology.

[–][deleted] 0 points0 points0 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]AcatalepticPolemic6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I have no doubt that there are good people there with good intentions, such as yourself. The first sentence, however, in the side bar of TRP is:

The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men.

It's main aim is to be a sexual strategy through discussions of shared experience. This strategy relies on beliefs and individual experiences. There are certain opinions that will get you upvoted in that sub, and some that will get you banned; there is a structure to their collective belief system. The part of their theory related to self-improvement is available virtually anywhere; you and others might be there for other reasons, but this doesn't change what TRP (as a group) is.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

it recognizes all human diversity, it doesnt CARE about the non-heterosexual part. it speaks of the hump of the bell curve of male and female traits, not the outliers. as a person with a strong belief everything is pretty much hardwired and biological about humans, the fact that some people feel like the opposite gender inside so strongly that they get mutilating surgery to correct that feeling PROVES that sex is hardwired to me, it doesnt counter the idea. i think its merely an "error" that can occur during the hormone bath that changes the fetus into what will become a boy or a girl, feminizing aspects of an XY baby.

[–][deleted] 6 points6 points6 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

ok im not familiar with all the terminology.

[–][deleted] 4 points4 points4 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

doesnt that presume their drive towards the other gender identity isnt biological or hormonal or hardwired? i believe it is, because i believe everything about human is. theres more than one way the wiring can develop outside the norm

[–][deleted] 6 points6 points6 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

TRP's main tenet that women cannot be masculine and men cannot be feminine

i have been a member of the man-o-sphere and non reddit "red pill" for almost 10 years and this has never been said by anyone *(i cant speak for TRP here). what TRP believes is that the bulk of men who want to be attractive to the MOST attractive possible women should act in ways that the men who are SUCCESSFUL AT ATTRACTING the most attractive possible women do in order to also attract those women. it simply doesnt concern itself with outliers or people who dont fit the norm, it doesnt deny their existence, it simply doesnt care about them for their purposes--if TRP here DOES do that i would be shocked.

[–]NobbyKnees0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

That's not true, actually.

Transgender is an umbrella term that encompasses a variety of non-cis gender identities, including genderqueer people and your plain ol' garden variety binary trans folk.

Transsexual is a word that is reaching (or has reached!) the end of its cultural relevance in the trans community. There are very few people who self-identify as transsexual. Simply using transgender, or trans for short, is far more respectful. If you want to refer to a specific segment of transgender people, the prefix "trans" and their gender works--e.g. "trans women". No matter what term you use, one thing to keep in mind is that they're all adjectives! You can talk about transgender people, trans people, even transsexual people (though I wouldn't recommend it), but you should not use them as nouns--e.g. transgeders, transes(?), transsexuals. Such usages suggest that the trans person in question is nothing more than their identity as trans. Same reason you would never refer to someone as "a gay" or talk about "the gays".

Also, the "Q" in LGBTQ just stands for "Queer". It is also an umbrella term, this time covering all non-normative gender and sexual identities. That's putting a very complicated subject very simply, but there you have it! Again, genderqueer is a subset of queer.

It seems like you had good intentions with this post, but please be careful when speaking as a voice of authority on subjects that you're not entirely familiar with, especially when they're as emotionally fraught as this! There's a lot of misinformation about trans folk floating around out there; you sound like someone who's genuinely trying to be an ally, so I'd hate for some of it to be from you :)

Edit: Reading below, it appears that you identify as genderqueer yourself? Dude, you really need to hit the books.

[–]ThePacketSlinger5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

There isn't one / we all have different opinions. There have been a few trans people that have commented on TRP and askTRP, from what I've seen they've all been treated with respect and dignity. From an analysis perspective, they're definitely outliers in that they don't fit in to the typical alpha/beta/$greekletter roles. It's not something that comes up very often.

[–]NobbyKnees7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So if trans women aren't subject to red pill theory, does that mean that we never hit the wall, and can just go on snaggin' alphas for life?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes that's what it means

[–]angatar_7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I've seen some nasty comments on transgender people on The Red Pill, but I can't recall if it was endorsed contributors or highly upvoted.

[–]Bluepillschool7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It really is like a 50/50 toss up on whether it will be well received or not. Sometimes you see people making horrible statements and being upvoted heavily for it, sometimes you see people calling out horrible statements and being heavily upvoted for it.

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

i doubt you would be surprised that the bulk of straight men are repulsed by transgenders. but its nothing to do with "the red pill". they probably all like pizza and would upvote a pro-pizza post, but thats not TRP either

[–]angatar_5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Hearing about how men are this way because of genetics, and women are this way because of genetics, and trans people are this way because they are genetic failures (whatever that means) makes me think there's something relevant there. Hearing about how transwomen are failed men on a subreddit that espouses masculinity makes me that there's something relevant there.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

i dont know what genetic failures means either, i spoke of the in utero hormone bath that turns somewhat female blanks into males or females, not genetics other then to mention that the transgendered MtF is still XY.

[–]angatar_2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

turns somewhat female blanks into males or females

I'd like to hear more about this.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

just a quick hit search

http://scienceray.com/biology/human-biology/sexual-development-of-the-embryo/

if theres no y chromosome at 6 weeks it defaults to female, the y chromosome directs the development of testes

in the third trimester there is a hormone bath that solidifies sex differentiation. it is my opinion this is where congenital homosexuality and transgenderism occurs.

[–]angatar_3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think we were talking about different things and there's been a misunderstanding. Nevermind.

[–]fhqwhgads_ 8 points8 points8 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

the bulk of straight men are repulsed by transgenders

What?? I have never heard of this. Do you have a source, or can you elaborate?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

i cannot believe that is a controversial statement, it has been considered a mental illness until very very very recently, let alone disgusting to heterosexual males

this is just the 1st entry i found looking for sources, it is offered as EVIDENCE tending show, not as dispositive proof:

http://www.academia.edu/1220851/Heterosexuals_Attitudes_Toward_Transgender_People_Findings_from_a_National_Probability_Sample_of_U.S._Adults

that you all need sources for what is blatantly obvious outside weird womens studies academic settings is fascinating.

[–]fhqwhgads_ 12 points12 points12 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not in women's studies, I'm in a field with ~90% men, so I don't really see the relevance of your last comment.

This study is very interesting, thanks for the link. I don't live in the United States, so I guess I didn't realize the extent to which transphobia and homophobia is acceptable there. Crazy!

[–]aaron_the_justRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Amongst feminists, you will find a continuum from those who consider anyone a woman who claims to be one (despite living/presenting as a man) all the way to those who hate transsexuals with a militant passion.

Redpillers are no different.

[–]Picnicpanther[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think you know what the word "continuum" means, because it means "whole, or a multiplicity of parts indistinguishable from each other."

I'm not quite sure what you meant, but I'd assume you meant spectrum, dichotomy, manifold, or just simply variety.

[–]aaron_the_justRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I stand corrected, and curtsy to your command of language.

[–]redpillschoolRed Pill-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The official mod stance is to allow content from other genders or orientations as long as they're not trolling, concern trolling, or just there to shame us. Unofficially, the stance I take, and I think many join me, is that you can hang out and read the red pill, but I'm not sure how useful it will be since we focus specifically on hetero male to female sexual strategy.

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