East EU, same B. S. for man

[+][deleted] 8 years ago [recovered] (59 children) | Copy Link

In France, its illegal for the man to get a paternity test without the woman's permission. That's utter bullshit.

[–]zetsthamys120 points121 points122 points 8 years ago* (49 children) | Copy Link

Actually this is EVEN WORSE than that in France. You need a lawyer, to prove to a judge that you might not be the father. And only if the judge agree that there is a reasonnable doubt, then you will be allowed to do a paternity test. Otherwise it is illegal.

And good luck getting any proof good enought for a "reasonnable doubt"... Not to mention the time and money you have to invest into this.

I understand our state policy on paternity test. It is actually very logic (from a stategina point of view). Lots of child are the result of cheating wives. So the state is "protecting" the children by making very difficult to do any legal paternity test. Otherwise lots of mothers would be left alone with their bastards, and the state would have to support all these monoparental families. While so called "dads" would use their money for themselves and be less profitable for the state.

I feel ashamed by this policy. And to think that women are feeling oppressed...

[–]Ketsa56 points57 points58 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points38 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]MarquisOfHell10 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DCrane09 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tre_Walker4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege17 points18 points19 points 8 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

Actually this is EVEN WORSE than that in France. You need a lawyer, to prove to a judge that you might not be the father. And only if the judge agree that there is a reasonnable doubt, then you will be allowed to do a paternity test. Otherwise it is illegal.

This is if YOU ARE MARRIED to the mother to be, and if she does not want the test. There is a lot of misconceptions about French law on this regard. French law in this matter is very old school: if you marry the woman, you are legally the dad of the kids she births during marriage (it is also the reason divorced women could not remarry within a year, to prove their were not with child). So for you to be an exception to this law, you have to have the judge authorization and to have it, you have to show some evidence that you might not be the father, in order for the DNA test to be admissible in court (and hence have any effect whatsoever legally speaking).

Now the flip side of this, is that contrary to what happens in many other countries, if you impregnate a girl whom you are not married with, she cannot just take a hair of yours and prove that you are the dad with a DNA test and boom, ruin your life for the next 18 years. You have to agree to the test, same as the married mother has to agree to it. If a woman gets a child and gets a DNA test on the sly, and brings that to the judge, she risks jail and fine, and the test is not admissible. It has to be ordered by the judge. And even so, you can still refuse it. If there is not other way to prove or suspect paternity (in the case of a ONS), then you cannot be forced to be recognized as the dad.

Also, there is no alimony in France, marriage ends the moment of the divorce.

The law is old-school since it basically recognizes what marriage used to be for: recognize paternity.

[–]zetsthamys15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link

MARRIED OR NOT. Wether the woman want the test or not. You can't do a paternity test in France without a legal authorization from the judge.

Article 16-11 of the civil code (french incoming sorry about that) :

"L'identification d'une personne par ses empreintes génétiques ne peut être recherchée que :

1° Dans le cadre de mesures d'enquête ou d'instruction diligentées lors d'une procédure judiciaire ; [...there are three others reasons but not relevant to our case...]

En matière civile, cette identification ne peut être recherchée qu'en exécution d'une mesure d'instruction ordonnée par le juge saisi d'une action tendant soit à l'établissement ou la contestation d'un lien de filiation, soit à l'obtention ou la suppression de subsides. Le consentement de l'intéressé doit être préalablement et expressément recueilli. Sauf accord exprès de la personne manifesté de son vivant, aucune identification par empreintes génétiques ne peut être réalisée après sa mort."

(Also there is alimony in France it's called "pension alimentaire") [edit : it's called "prestations compensatoires"]

[–]kesawebz5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]kesawebz3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]kesawebz0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The article just SAY WHAT I SAID. Read the Civil code part related to it

"Le divorce met fin au devoir de secours entre époux.

L'un des époux peut être tenu de verser à l'autre une prestation destinée à compenser, autant qu'il est possible, la disparité que la rupture du mariage crée dans les conditions de vie respectives. Cette prestation a un caractère forfaitaire. Elle prend la forme d'un capital dont le montant est fixé par le juge.

Toutefois, le juge peut refuser d'accorder une telle prestation si l'équité le commande, soit en considération des critères prévus à l'article 271, soit lorsque le divorce est prononcé aux torts exclusifs de l'époux qui demande le bénéfice de cette prestation, au regard des circonstances particulières de la rupture."

It is A LUMP SUM. It is like splitting assets. However, if you do not want to sell one of your cars to pay the ex, then you can pay it like you would for a credit.

The article you link is a method of evaluating how much it could be. Did you see the amounts we are talking about for regular people? A one time payment of 44000 euros for a 22 years marriage, and then it is over. If you want to spread the payment over a few years, then it is ok. This is nowhere near the amount of alimony, this wrapping up your mistake by selling your car, and then it is done.

This is very different from alimony which can be reassessed if the your ex wants some more, or you better your life in the meantime, etc.

Also the judge can refuse if the party that asks for the prestation was in the wrong (ie adultery)

[–]kesawebz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lestratege1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]kesawebz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zetsthamys1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

MARRIED OR NOT. Wether the woman want the test or not. You can't do a paternity test in France without a legal authorization from the judge.

It doesn't matter in the case you are not married since in this case you are NOT presumed to be the father so you just have to do nothing and you are not the dad. If you really want to be the dad, then just go declare the kid at the city hall as the father, period. If the mother contests the paternity, then it's on her.

The issue is only if you are married and the kid is not yours, not when you are not married and the kid is yours (since you only need to declare the child at city hall), or unmarried and the kid is not yours (then you have nothing to do). The issue for married men actually play in favor for unmarried men who do not want to recognize their child, since they cannot be tested without their EXPLICIT consent and AFTER a judgement, which rarely happens. And even then, their refusal isn't automatically understood as evidence of paternity (although it may if there is other evidence).

And no, there is no alimony in France, only child support. You may split patrimony at divorce (if married either in communal property or acquired communal property, but that's it). No bullshit life alimony as in the UK for example.

[–]zetsthamys5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

What I said is right nonetheless.

I was pointing at how difficult it is to get the right to do a paternity test in France. And it is, no matter what : difficult for you to ask for a paternity test to prove that you are the father or not or for the women to ask for a paternity test to prove that you are the father or not. Depending on if you have been recognized as the father (to prove that you are not) or not (to prove that you are the father). (((Of course you are automatically recognised as the father if you are married to the mother, and you can declare or not the son as yours if you are not married to the mother. Which change wich side is interested in performing a paternity test.)))

And NO. If the "Pension Alimentaire" is indeed mainly aiming child support. It can also serves another purpose at the same time. Under certain circumstances a poor women divorcing a rich man can get a "Pension Alimentaire" for herself without having any kids. But it is indeed not an eternal help (though it can last many years...).

[–]lestratege-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

And NO. If the "Pension Alimentaire" is indeed mainly aiming child support. It can also serves another purpose at the same time. Under certain circumstances a poor women divorcing a rich man can get a "Pension Alimentaire" for herself without having any kids. But it is indeed not an eternal help (though it can last many years...).

Nope. Pension alimentaire is only payable DURING divorce proceedings, ie until divorce. AFTER divorce, it is not payable any longer. In rare case you can have a "prestation compensatoire" but this is always a lump sum (article 270 civil code "Cette prestation a un caractère forfaitaire. Elle prend la forme d'un capital dont le montant est fixé par le juge. ") to compensate eventual income disparity. It basically is like splitting patrimony regardless of the marriage contract.

[–]zetsthamys4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]zetsthamys0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege0 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So it's pretty close to alimony if you ask me.

Nope. It is up to 8 years in the worst case so you don't have too harsh payments. It is usually a lump sum and is treated exactly like splitting assets. The only difference is that this trumps the marriage contract, so even if you are married in separation des biens (split assets) then you still owe some under this clause.

The clause exists just to override blatant difference. Since by default, people get married under communal property of acquired property, then prestation compensatoire is uber rare, since in order for it to be justified, you'd need income on the part of the husband that evades communal property (so inheritance for example). And since this set at divorce, whatever happens AFTER the divorce can never change it, unlike alimony in the US or the UK.

[–]kesawebz0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

You don't know what you are talking about. The mother doesn't have to ASK, she needs to SUE the man in court, with "action en recherche de paternite".

If it's proven that you're the dad you have to pay child support if the mother ask for it, if you refuse to take the test you'll be considered to be the dad even if you're not therefore you'll have to pay child support if the mother ask for it.

Absolutely NOT. The refusal to take the test is only indicative for the judge. If there are no other elements, suck it up. The judge would probably not even order the test if there are not prior evidence of presumptive paternity. So if it is a ONS, then too bad. The test must be done after a judge order because it needs to be done during a lawsuit to have effect on the legal paternity: either if one contests paternity, or if one tries to establish it.

Child support is established BY THE JUDGE, not by the mother. It's not enough to just ask for it.

[–]kesawebz0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You're just going to argue sementic ? you just prove yourself that your precedent claim is incorrect.

You have obviously problems understanding.

You can't just walk away from the baby and except to not have to pay child support in France.

YES YOU CAN if you are NOT MARRIED and you haven't recognized the child. It is the flip side of not being able to walk away from a child that isn't yours if you are married. If the mother wants a daddy, then she needs TO SUE you, just like if you are married and do not want to be the father you need to sue (contestation de paternite).

You do not seem to understand law. What you regard as a major flaw (assigned paternity to the husband unless he sues and DNA test can thus only take place under this lawsuit) has a flip side: you can walk away from your child if you haven't married the mother and not recognised him. It is done every day in France and it has no impact on you because all child support by the state is given regardless of the state of the child. So unlike in the US where the government has an incentive to go after the dads to recoup the money, there is no such thing in France becuase child support is given to all regardless if they have a dad or not.

[–]kesawebz1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How exactly do you walk away and except to not have to pay child support when all she has to do is to sue you with enough evidence that you could be the dad to enforce child support on you ?

In France, if not married with the mother (in this case you are automatically the father unless you contest it to a judge) in order to be the dad of a child, you need you to go to the city hall and declare yourself as the father of the child within THREE DAYS of the birth.

ALl she has to do is sue you is definitely NOT something French. It is a pain in the ass to sue someone, and this lawsuit is a civil suit, which means SHE HAS TO PROVE HER CLAIM. She needs letters, emails, photos, a whole bunch of stuff to just show the possibility you might be the dad which doesn't mean it will prove you are.

She used to have 2 years to do it, and this has been extended to 10.

There is hundreds of testimony on the internet about a guy that had a one night stand with a women who end up pregnant, the guy didn't recognize the child but still got a letter from the judge telling him that he has to pay child support sometimes even years after the hook up and yes in France.

That is utter BS. Here http://www.justice.gouv.fr/art_pix/1_stat_anur09_10_20101122.pdf

Page 49. The stats is a bit old but I don't want to bother to look for newer ones. In 2008, for the whole 65 millions French people, there was a grand total of 1294 lawsuits in "recherche de paternite", and 136 appeal cases.

Conversely, there were 1744 lawsuit to contest paternity (ie paternity fraud) and 229 appeal cases.

Every year there are about 800 000 births. You realise how rare those things are? And here we are talking about the number of lawsuits, we have no idea of how those were decided, in favor of the mum or the defendant. So either you heard ALL the cases, or you hear some rare cases stated over and over again. And no, you have to appear in court. You won't be suddenly told, you're the dad, this is a sign of complete fabrication of the story.

To compare (p.141) you had 15000 rape cases in court in 2008.

[–]kesawebz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lestratege1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]kesawebz1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]vostok-Abdullah1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]poloppoyop0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]J_St0rm11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]mgtow_solutions3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]I-am-the-lul0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MarquisOfHell4 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheDevilsAdvokaat5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]zetsthamys3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheDevilsAdvokaat2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]zetsthamys2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TheDevilsAdvokaat2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]JohnnySkidmarx2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GeekofFury2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]HM_mtl2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lestratege3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, it protects men from being assigned paternity at will. For a woman to assign paternity, she has to sue the presumptive dad and if she shows enough evidence (letters, emails, etc.) that there is a chance that the man could be the dad, the judge may order a DNA test. However, the man can still refuse. If the remaining evidence is not enough to back up the presumption of paternity, then tough luck for the woman, her brat is without a dad. If however there is plenty of evidence of the relation, and the man refuses the DNA test, then the judge can take this as evidence that he is indeed the dad, and rule he is. The man can still take it after to clear his name (but then why refusing in the first place).

About 60% of children in France are born out of wedlock (although it doesn't mean single mothers, most people just don't bother to get married anymore)

[–]curiouslyengaged2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alether 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]curiouslyengaged1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]enjoy_life884 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fraccles0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]manananaas0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]drqxx48 points49 points50 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]whackPanther22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]PadaV418 points19 points20 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]drqxx3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dark_Shroud2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]drqxx0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]kuxcom236 points37 points38 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_unseen_one43 points44 points45 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]lister7777 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PythonTheSnek1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Chronoguy2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]liberator1036 points37 points38 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]hazmigaming10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]HKfiend0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DCrane09 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah look don’t get made at me over what I’m about to say cause the whole situation sucks, but if he’s been playing dad to a kid that isn’t his, is on the birth certificate, has the father-child bond and relationship going, I think that outweighs the sperm donor at least socially. The judge is probabally bound by legal statues to make a lousy unfair ruling. We’d need more details on the case to decide. An infant is one thing and in that case, sure ‘dad’ should be let off the hook and the sperm donor compelled to support the child. However, assuming the kid is a few years old, I say blame the cheating lying bitch not the good man who is playing the role of dad. I don’t have kids but logically I don’t think I’d have a problem continuing to be dad here. If she was a lunatic and hell bent on keeping the kid away from me, absolutely shouldn’t play child support and it should be between the whore and her sperm donor. I’m not so jaded that I’d condone ripping a father away from a child he has a bond with. I sure as hell would hope the cheating bitch got punished some how... bare minimum child support, loss of custody, something. Hope that makes sense.

[–]IcebergHermit 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]enjoy_life886 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]enjoy_life889 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]Alether 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

High promiscuity, which includes open acceptance of homosexuality

What is the connection here? Do you mean that people who are promiscuous are more accepting of it? I don't really see that, people of any random background ranging from sluts to virgin save-yourself-for-marriage folk can be both accepting and rejecting of it. It really has more to do with religion than promiscuity imo.

open acceptance of homosexuality, is usually a good sign that a society is at its end days

Not every civilization was/is homophobic and they did fine. Afaik. the number of homosexuals is pretty static worldwide, people don't "turn" gay the way some rhetoric would have you believe, they always were. Acceptance does not make people gay, it just makes them not be slaves to a wife and LifeScript of comforming to people's expectations. MGTOW would get that sentiment I feel.

Marriage rates go down and as a consequence

Correlation does not imply causation. That would more so be due to the shift to individualistic values and modern day feminism. Both are movements promoted by the left, but that's their only significant connection imo.

If anything, technically, with gay marriage being legal, the gays are contributing more to marriage statistics now than before. They are also probably doing less divorcing, at least the male-male couples.

Homosexuality is just an easy scapegoat of an actually very tiny minority of people who affect you way less if at all compared to modern day legislation and life-culture / gynocentrism.

[–]DigitalScetis1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CrackingYs 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sanjeevpalakala16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]the_murder_of_crowe13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IcebergHermit 15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]dogsarethebest143 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Afab67 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tharkyllinus8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]anongogogo7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]vetiarvind6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IcebergHermit 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Schwaggaccino3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Dark_Shroud0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]J_St0rm2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Spungo1 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GeekofFury1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]berserkerwolf11-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[removed]

[–]Dark_Shroud0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 8 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]somuchluv2give29 points30 points31 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]squidracer 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]FreeOfK 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]zetsthamys3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]J_St0rm16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AnswerForYourBazaar6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

would you want to stop being dad?

This is irrelevant. If I want to continue being father figure to that child, I can choose to, but that is solely MY decision. If I do not want to have anything to do with the child and leave him/her to their biological parents to raise - that is still viable decision. Currently the law with various concepts of "social parent" (yes, that exists and is a basis how DNA tests get overthrown in a court) inhibits my ability to make this decision.

Important point is that while marriage grants certain privileges it comes with certain obligations. A common theme in marriage oaths is something like "love and support each other, raise kids, yada yada till the end of our days".

Once one of the couple cheats, the contract is broken. Woman is supposed to bear a child of her husband, not some bastard. Unless it is proven the court of law that the child is a consequence of a rape, woman should take full responsibility for both the child and broken marriage oath. A woman CANNOT NOT KNOW (there is no way to stress this enough) of at least slight possibility of the child being born out of extramarital affair.

[–]DCrane09 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AnswerForYourBazaar0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]AnimalFactsBot-14 points-13 points-12 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]PadaV46 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]AnimalFactsBot-7 points-6 points-5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

East EU, same B. S. for man

Comments

Galactic Truth!

Title	East EU, same B. S. for man
Author	ivkemilioner
Upvotes	542
Comments	112
Date	June 5, 2018 7:40 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/8ooye7/east_eu_same_b_s_for_man/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/east-eu-same-b-s-for-man.547504 https://theredarchive.com/post/547504