Ignoring the fact that men are more likely to be hospitalised or die from viral respiratory illnesses (e.g. flus and COVID), the writes a puff piece for extra leave just for women because of their possible maladies.

[–]broccolibetch 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]andejoh 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Everyone should have adequate leave. I doubt there's a lot disagreement on that, but I think there's an issue created when we start suggesting that this particular malady or that particular malady should have it's own leave. For example, I'm of the opinion that maternity leave is handled in an illegal way in the U.S. It should be simply sick leave for recovery and parental leave for bonding. What ailments that perdominately affect men have their own separate leave policy in addition to regular sick leave.

Busibesses shouldn't be allowed to create benefits that severely disproportionally affect one gender or we could give men a day off for draft registration, but not women because they're not required to register. We could give men several days off a month for masturbation under our wellness program because research has shown that ejaculating like 20 times a month reduces the risk of prostate cancer.

[–]broccolibetch 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]andejoh 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]colombianmra2PMC3 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Western_Ad_4217 -6 points-5 points-4 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]SokalDidNothingWrong2 points 5 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

The KKK maybe got stuff done, does that make them better than BLM?

[–]Western_Ad_4217 -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]racheltpotts -25 points-24 points-23 points 5 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 11 points12 points13 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FatJesus15 11 points12 points13 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Of course you don't, you have an inherent bias and benefit for such a thing to come to fruition. Your statement of "Men are often granted sick leave with no questions asked. Many women will be told they are being dramatic." is not only inaccurate but very clearly without any sort of evidence or logical backing. Be very careful, your ignorance is showing.

Men on average work longer hours, are more willing to relocate for a better opportunity and generally tend to put their careers ahead of most things in their lives. So when they take a sick day it is usually for a valid reason. (mind you I am generalizing here, which isn't to say that all men are this way, there will always be opportunists and con artists on both sides looking to screw somebody/some company over)

It's not acceptable for a man to take some time off for his mental health, and even those that do are stigmatized and/or shamed into feeling guilty or less useful when they do. I don't see such a thing happening to women in general.

Having grown up in a household with 5 women, I will never say that menstrual cramps are silly or a joke, they can be painful and debilitating, but as with most things, the value an individual brings to a company is based on what kind of profit/revenue they can help the company generate. Unfortunately this means that with the people taking more time off (whether valid reasons or not is irrelevant to the bottom line of a company) those people as considered less valuable and thus are considered a liability instead of an asset.

I'm not sure if you see the irony here so I will put it simply for the sake of clarity, the more time you want to take off (or the stockpiling of random days off) that is not beneficial to a business /company, which in turn makes them less likely to hire women if such a thing becomes reality meaning that less women considered for promotions (because of random and unknown number of days off at a random point in any month).

Feminism is shooting itself in the foot and then complaining that life is unfair. No business or corporation wants to hire people who will be taking time off monthly with the possibility of a lengthy maternity leave. It's not about gender, it's about profit. Every decision a business or large corporation makes is about money, that is exactly why anybody with a shred of common sense can see that the gender pay gap is a myth, if Pepsi or Coke could save hundreds of millions of dollars by hiring only women because of the "gender pay gap" they would. No amount of "patriarchy" (which apparently is responsible for the "gender pay gap") would be able to overcome the profit/profit loss a company would suffer for sexism.

[–]racheltpotts 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Mental health still has a stigma around it for everyone not just men. That’s something feminism wants to tackle for everyone.

Men do not work more hours. ‘Your ignorance is showing’

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53558250.amp

Women also carry a lot of the unpaid work and emotional labour. Cooking, cleaning, taking care of the home and family. Buying all the gifts etc. The 40 hour work week worked well in the past as men did all the work and women did all of the unpaid labour in the home. Now both men and women work long hours and women still have more work to do at home. Ofc this is a generalisation, many men do help around the house but far too often, it’s not enough. This is one reason women are far more likely to initiate a divorce than the man.

Unfortunately, you’re right about profit. This is why we have discrimination laws on hiring and firing. I’m aware that a company doesn’t want employees to take days off. That’s common sense. With these period days off, it doesn’t mean all women will take them. The women it will affect will most likely be women who took days off before anyway due to debilitating pain. They might just not have to lie anymore about why. I know you take the pain seriously but there are so many out there who look down on it and diminish what people have to go through. The point is, as with anything, it depends on the individual employee. Some people are just ill a lot and will take more days off, and that’s at the discretion of the employer.

[–]FatJesus15 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Mental health does have a stigma around it, it does seem to be more of a stigma towards men than women though. Men are told to "man up" or "stop being a little bitch". Women have far more avenues of support, both professionally and in their personal lives.

As for the article you provided it didn't offer anything in terms of evidence to support your claims that women work more hours than men. It offered no proof or studies, not even any anecdotal evidence to support its own claims. It. May as well be an opinion piece. Other than the fact that this article is hosted on BBC it doesn't have an author or proof that it's limited stats are even accurate. You really should read an article beyond the title if you want to try and use it to prove a point.

Here is an article that proves my point on the hours worked and the quality of an article:

https://towardsdatascience.com/is-the-difference-in-work-hours-the-real-reason-for-the-gender-wage-gap-interactive-infographic-6051dff3a041

Lastly the argument that women do all this extra work by raising children and cleaning the house well, I have a few things to say about that, first of all, nobody forced women to have children. It was a choice made by them, implying otherwise is not only disingenuous but it goes against the idea of feminism, in that all women are powerful and in control of their bodies and minds. Secondly, the cleaning of the house more often falls on the shoulders of women because men work longer hours. This is a fact (see the above article). The main reason I ignore the "unpaid hours of work" is because there is no way to quantify or measure them in any way for either gender. For example, did your statement include those same hours worked by single fathers? Or stay at home dads? What about homes with maids and nannys? How about travel time for men who work far from home? (statistically more likely for men to travel further for work). Do you see my issues with your claims of unpaid work? Not only is it impossible to measure out properly, but it's a consequence of choice, not oppression. You are using a fallacious argument to prove your point. It's inherently flawed

[–]Angryasfk 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Rachel you really are potty. Firstly, my father’s work used to require him to produce a doctor’s certificate if he had more than a day’s absence. This required him to visit a doctor and get official confirmation that he was sufficiently sick! I’ve never been able to just take time off with “no questions asked”. My mother, however, told me about a coworker of hers who’d take time off as soon as she had accrued a days sick leave! And this was early ‘70’s! So I call bs on that one.

Secondly the article isn’t about endometriosis or serious and chronic conditions like that, or allowing women to use sick leave for these conditions. It is a push for women to have time off for the sort of cramping that is a regular part of the cycle (but worse for some than others), and giving them allocated time off in addition to the sick leave that all workers in these firms are entitled to. If a male worker was prone to migraines (which can be very debilitating) took time off, that would come out of regular sick leave. And if women don’t take this period leave, they’ll get paid out either at the end of the year, or when they leave the company - as happens with all leave that isn’t used! It is clearly favouring women, and would discourage hiring women without a political agenda working the other way.

Finally that link you posted actually says that men work more hours: 51 to 50 hours, and 10 more “paid hours” (it’s unclear why women aren’t paid for 9 of those hours, which is suspicious IMHO).

I’m also tired of this “unpaid housework” stuff. When I lived alone, I did all my washing, cooking, washing dishes and cooking implements, vacuuming etc. I still cook a lot and do my own washing, make the bed as often as not and an the only one who mows the lawn and weeds the garden (and even waters the plants). Should my employer pay me extra for that? Are you going to give me a medal for it? Who does housework is really something that couples/families decide for themselves. Feminist studies ignore things like yard and building maintenance, which are forms of housework, and also include housework performed by women who aren’t in paid employment or women who work part time to help puff up the figures anyway. Btw I love the way you included “buying the gifts”! As if that’s a terrible chore most women would rather get out of!

Look, I get it that cramping can be bad enough for a woman to take sick leave. But don’t pretend that offering women (and only women) additional paid sick leave in case they are the women who may have debilitating cramps is not unequal!

I wasn’t going to comment on this one as the article wasn’t related to COVID-19, merely promoting an agenda of additional sick leave for women. But your comments went beyond merely pointing out the debilitating effects of menstrual problems with making assertions which are unsupported and based solely on what you imagine must be the case.

The truth: men in general do not find it easier to take sick leave (a company’s policies are the same for both, except for maternity leave and this proposal - both of which favour women); housework is not relevant to the point; even the link you pushed had women working fewer hours than men - 10 hours less paid work and 1 in terms of “clock in time”, and they made no effort to analyse this discrepancy. You went from pointing out the actual problems of women’s issues affecting the ability to work and started pushing various feminist anti-male cliches.

[–]__pulsar 13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]im_a_teapot_dude -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a difference in how men and women get treated asking for sick time off.

Would you really be surprised by it? There’s someone in this thread right now justifying why that happens. Surely among the millions of employers, some of them share that attitude.

How often it actually happens shouldn’t actually matter in our attitude towards whether it’s good or bad.

The issue to me is: do we acknowledge that to the degree that happens, that’s a problem, and attempt to adjust in a way that makes discrimination harder (employers giving no-questions-asked sick days to everyone, for example), or do we encode discrimination into the structure of what we’re doing, to “correct” for bias that doesn’t exist the same way everywhere (employers giving period leave).

[–]__pulsar 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]im_a_teapot_dude -3 points-2 points-1 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Greg_W_Allan 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]__pulsar 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]femitrollololol 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Greg_W_Allan 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Angryasfk 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]im_a_teapot_dude 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]racheltpotts 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with everything you’re saying, except that women shouldn’t need help dealing with periods.

There are a few conditions (endometriosis, PCOS etc.) which can cause debilitating pain. I’m talking, women can faint, have muscle spasms that mean they can’t walk, can’t get out of bed. These are obviously extremes but they prove that cramps should be taken seriously. Period pains are just miniature contractions and can be extremely painful.

Not just that but often when women go to the doctor, their pain isn’t believed and they’re told they’re just being dramatic, or just to deal with it and if it continues come back. So often women aren’t diagnosed with these syndromes until much later and are forced to suffer without treatment. So they don’t get the meds they need which might make them able to go into work.

[+]HughJass62 -28 points-27 points-26 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Angryasfk 17 points18 points19 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]SuperSupremeKai 10 points11 points12 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]__pulsar 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DraganTehPro 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SuperSupremeKai 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SamaelET 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Angryasfk 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]HughJass62 -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Don't you think that could have to do with men on average being far-less likely to seek help in a crisis? Men are more likely to ignore an injury to the point of worsening it, more likely to feel shame for seeking help, and more likely to suffer acute mental illness that goes unchecked.

Homelessness as a demographic is a bit of an outlier to measure something like trends in respiratory illness deaths, especially when the article has nothing to do with deaths from these illnesses. It's about extending paid leave to complications from menstruation. Last time I checked, women can't help the fact that our reproductive cycle is painful and prone to illness.

Since the article comes from Australia, OP reminds me of Bob Katter. When asked about same sex marriage, he dismissed the issue without really touching it, then immediately turned the conversation to deaths from crocodile attacks.

[–]SamaelET 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah let's blame men for their higher homelessness rates. How compasionate of you. The "men don't seek help" is a myth created by feminists to make men and boys the reason of their own issues, blame masculinity, be sure that no ressources go to men and boys and protect their narrative about men being the oppressors.

Maybe men are less likely to seek support because the support is too costy and less tailored for men than women since the world care more about women's health than men.

Maybe men sacrifice their health to not burden their family with the cost ? Since men are used as money making tools so women can stay at home.

Maybe it is because every country has a women's health policy and very few a men's health policy even though men's lives are worse than women's by every measure.

Maybe it is because men work for more hours, commute more, more stressful jobs (physically and mentally and therefore have less time and energy for appointements or struggle to have an appointements since they have less free time ?

Maybe it is because society is full of misandry and people attack, shame and punish men for not making enough money, burdening others with their issues or foe not being invincible ?

You were the one talking about women loosing jobs. And all I am saying is "should we focus on men loosing jobs since it is more dangerous for men to loose jobs ? ". The conversation was about media twisting reality to give another privilege to women (as if the tens of female privileges were not enough), by cherry picking data and you start talking about women loosing their jobs.

It is also funny how you twist the fact that men' s death rate to covid is higher than women's toward women losing their jobs. "Rate" mean a man infected is more likely to die than a woman.

Having only one X chromosome make men more vulnerable to illiness and reduce their life expectancy. Should we start giving priority to men's healthcare, giving men more money , reduce our retirement age, and more paid leave to us ? Or are you just an hypocrite seeking privileges ?

[–]Angryasfk 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

YAWN!

Yes, male homelessness isn’t really relevant to a discussion about additional “menstrual leave” for women. And the whole COVID issue isn’t really relevant either.

But the comments YOU made about male homelessness, just think how you’d react if someone made them about the big feminist complaints of “glass ceilings” and “gender pay gaps”: well you know women are less assertive; women way more women take time out of the workforce to have kids; women tend to take easy jobs with regular hours (a case in point are husband and wife friends of mine: both lawyers. He works for a commercial law firm and is now partner - she always has chosen to work for government agencies; guess who earns more, but there’s a heavy sacrifice of time and stress for that). Something tells me you wouldn’t be so quick to accept these explanations for women earning less or being less prevalent in top positions as you are for dismissing male homelessness as due to men being far less likely to “ask for help”! I suspect you’d call this victim blaming! (I’d be happy to be wrong).

On the issue. I think menstrual issues (like bad cramping) are a valid reason for taking sick leave. Endometriosisis a serious, but relatively rare condition. As is polycystic ovary syndrome. Should women (and only women) be given extra sick leave because of monthly cycles? Many women don’t suffer enough to take them anyway and will be paid out. We’re constantly told that men have poorer health, and are more susceptible to sickness and diseases than women. Surely this would balance out the normal menstrual problems most women face.

[–]HughJass62 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Comments