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Lying about data

Dabookadaniel

April 20, 2020

0 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Lying about data
Author	Dabookadaniel
Upvotes	0
Comments	76
Date	April 20, 2020 10:37 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g530bl/lying_about_data/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/lying-about-data.854478 https://theredarchive.com/post/854478

Comments

[–]duhhhh 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AskingToFeminists 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Indeed, it is not complex if you read the study, including the definitions they use. For example, they define rape as the penetration of the victim by the criminal. Which is a crime which, by definition, is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men on women. It's like saying that punching people is a crime overwhelmingly committed by people who have hands. Yes, men have penises and women don't, so it is mostly men who commit crimes involving penetrating your victims.

To contrast that, they have created the category "made to penetrate", which is penetration by the victim of the criminal. Which by definition is a crime perpetrate overwhelmingly by women on men. And if you pay even mild attention, you will notice that those two are the exact same crime, with the only difference being who does what to whom.

And if you put them together, you get what people commonly (but not in this study) refer to as rape.

You could wonder why make two categories that describe what people commonly call rape, and call only one of those, the one which happens mostly to women, rape, given that it is bound to create confusion in the general public, who will not perceive the little "by definition" hidden in the "mostly women are victims of rape(*see fine print)".

So, when you actually read the whole study, without going over the bothersome stuff at the beginning in the wall of text that explains what is going on, it is quite clear. Otherwise, as you so neatly illustrated, it is quite confusing to people, who don't understand that by rape they don't mean "forced to have sex", but "forced to be penetrated", and have neatly put the other half in a distinct category to avoid notice.

Then, there is the issue of presenting the lifetime numbers. You see, the CDC's study is a survey, on memory. And memory is woefully bad. It is terrible. It is so bad that a few hours after an accident, you have a hard time finding witnesses that agree on details. It is so bad that psychologists have demonstrated you can implant false memories of having committed serious crimes in people's heads.

Everytime you remember a memory, it's not like rewatching a movie stored on a hard drive. It's more like beggininh again the editing process in photoshop. You constantly rewrite memories. And you very much do rewrite them according to the various social pressures that surrounds you.

Let's imagine that you live in a society that tells you that the rape of women is everywhere, that if as a woman you ever had any kind of sexual encounter with which you were slightly displeased, it was probably rape, etc. As time goes on and you remember again those, you will edit out the inconvenient part. The parts where you consented might get smaller, the part that were inconvenient might get bigger, and things that weren't rape might begin to be, after enough editing. And that isn't even dishonesty. Just memory being flawed.

Imagine you live in a society where you are constantly told that the rape of men by women isn't something that happen, where people tell you how lucky you were to just have had sex and that they wish they were you, and dismiss out of hand your claims, and shame you if you try to insist you have been victimized. In the same way, through the process of editing that is memory, when you remember, you might start thinking that consent was really more their than it was, and what was rape might turn into something else. And it isn't dishonesty either.

The point is, memory is terrible at the job of keeping an accurate picture of events. And the longer the time, the less reliable it is. Which makes survey of memory over lifetime a terrible idea, even more when it comes to controversial topics like that.

If you add on top of that that if tomorrow, no woman ever got raped again, next year's survey of lifetime memory would barely change, because it also takes into account rapes that happened during the hippie years when everyone was on drugs and fucking everything that moves.

You also have to wonder what exactly is the point of lifetime surveys, as they say nothing about the current society. I mean, except the fact that when you take them, you get an inflated number of women who are victims and a deflated number of men who are victims

And so, if you want a picture as accurate as the other methodological flaws of the study allows for it of the proportion of men vs women who are forced into having sex, you need to compare the "last 12 months" of women under the category "rape" aka women forced to be penetrated, aka forced into sex, vs the "last 12 months" of men under the category "made to penetrate", aka men who were force to penetrate aka forced into sex.

And when you do that... Magic, women are just as human as men. That means just as likely to be shitty people, and just as likely to have shit happen to them. Women are no angels, and neither are men, men are no monsters, and neither are women.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dabookadaniel -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

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[–]problem_redditor 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dabookadaniel 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]problem_redditor 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

The numbers you have presented are the lifetime numbers, which are far less reliable than past year numbers due to inaccurate recall. Furthermore, lifetime numbers have decades long lag thus it doesn't faithfully represent what is CURRENTLY happening. Basically, past year numbers are more reliable and relevant.

If you look at the past year numbers from the NISVS, for the years 2010, 2011 and 2012 just as many men were forced into nonconsensual sex as women.

Here is a table (source) to easily demonstrate it.

CDC NISVS Yearly Rape and Made-To-Penetrate Victimisation

	Rape (women)	Rape (men)	Made to penetrate (women)	Made to penetrate (men)
2010	1.1% (est 1,270,000)	*	*	1.1% (est 1,267,000)
2011	1.6% (est 1,929,000)	*	*	1.7% (est 1,921,000)
2012	1.0% (est 1,217,000)	*	*	1.7% (est 1,957,000)

*Zero or statistically insignificant amount according to NISVS

You can see that the estimated numbers of male victims of made to penetrate each year look very similar to the estimated numbers of female victims of rape. So if made to penetrate happens about as often as rape each year then by most people's assumed definition of rape (nonconsensual sex) then men are approximately half of rape victims each year.

[–]Dabookadaniel -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]problem_redditor4 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]problem_redditor5 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, you could use the data to support the claim that men are victimised more than women as well. The NISVS State Report (I believe this is what u/bufedad was referring to in the original discussion) averages the three years' worth of results from 2010-2012.

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

If you look at the averaged past year numbers, 1.2% of women were raped and 1.5% of men were made to penetrate. You can confirm these numbers with some simple maths. Add together the numbers for the three years and divide them by the number of years.

For women raped: (1.1% + 1.6% + 1.0%)/3 = 1.2333% which rounds down to the 1.2% number they provided.

For men made to penetrate: (1.1% + 1.7% + 1.7%)/3 = 1.5%.

So while the difference is not large, the data does show that on average more men report being forced into nonconsensual sex in the past year than women.

[–]Dabookadaniel-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]problem_redditor8 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]duhhhh4 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Which was a response to bufedad's comments specifically about nonconsensual sex, and he never mentioned all sexual violence.

You said:

Using the CDC’s NISVS data to purport the idea that men are victimized more than women is an incredibly foolish and malicious

I've never seen anyone do that about all sexual violence, only nonconsensual sex. Which is what bufedad clearly quoted from the CDC and everyone else on the thread discussed and you argued against every step of the way while making shit up about the study and repeatedly bringing it back to "rape" such at the end of this comment /r/MensRights/comments/g530bl/lying_about_data/fo1t5vu/ and not considering the other equally prevalent form of nonconsensual sex. You are WRONG and you can't make a valid argument with the facts so you have been making stuff up and moving the goalposts. What does this accomplish?

[–]Dabookadaniel0 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Dabookadaniel 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

They don’t just get rid of the previous numbers.

Yes, they do. They get a new batch of people each year. Those people are asked did you experience X in the last year and did you experience X in your lifetime. The data is not carried forward. So maybe after years of derision for being victims men stop admitting it, or maybe women are getting more rapey in the 2010s. I don't know. But clearly I know more about the topic than you and clearly I'm willing to learn because you directly told me you don't care to learn in the linked thread.

I’m here to explain that using this data to claim men are victimized more is wrong and deceitful.

Yet, you don't have the time to read my post in the other thread I linked to that explains all this. Maybe /u/bufedad cherry picked a year that showed more male victims and you cherry picked a year that showed more female victims. That doesn't mean he is lying, wrong, or deceitful.

[–]Dabookadaniel -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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