~ archived since 2018 ~

Manliness is a threat

reeeren · 2019-01-17T15:15:23+00:00

Manliness is a threat483 points•106 comments•submitted 2 years ago by Welfare-is-Dysgenics109...

reeeren

January 17, 2019

253 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Manliness is a threat
Author	reeeren
Upvotes	253
Comments	80
Date	January 17, 2019 3:15 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/agyq1y/manliness_is_a_threat/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/manliness-is-a-threat.886106 https://theredarchive.com/post/886106

Comments

[+]WTFOMGBBQ1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (51 children) | Copy Link

I have to say, I'm tired of men's rights being compared to political orientation. Today I saw multiple "conservative" on face book white knighting and defending the ad, and many liberals bashing it.

We need to stop making men's rights about political orientation, men's rights are for everyone.

[–]blkarcher77 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bigbossman123 23 points24 points25 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]VojvodaSrpski 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bigbossman123 14 points15 points16 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

There is a strong reason for that association and it will not go away.
We have the same problem as Jordan Peterson. He doesn't like nazis, but they like him.

Similarly alt-right types are all very heavily anti-feminist and all share a bunch of views with various men's groups. I don't know these guys, I imagine they are more tradcon, MGTOW, RedPill and incel than mainstream MRAs but still they share a lot of our concerns and beliefs.

When Sydney Watson did the March for Men in Melbourne it seems like every alt-right / nazi / fascist group in town recognised it as the premier social event of the year and the place they needed to be. There were two groups separated by cops. The alt-right guys naturally chose the MRA side and were not turned away. At least one of the leaders were already publicly associated with Watson.

Many men are not bothered by the Gillette ad. How about Nazi men? I'll guess they universally hate it. They are our brothers in arms, the public know that.

[–]Bigbossman123 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kuato2012 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's definitely a part of it. I think there's a second reason for the association, which is even more bone chilling.

This culture war, or whatever you want to call it, is asymmetrical warfare. You may believe in the virtues of truth and letting ideas clash in the free marketplace (and may truth and good ideas win!), but your opponents do not. It's astonishing to think that so many people aren't even interested in playing that game, but classical liberalism holds no appeal for an authoritarian; they are supremely convinced of their own rightness and simply want their side to crush yours, no matter what. As such, denying you any voice is obviously preferable to engaging in the free marketplace.

So if smearing MRAs as being alt-right will damage the movement and render it easier to casually dismiss by any fence-sitting audience, then that's a good enough reason. Whether or not that accusation is true is ENTIRELY, horrifyingly, immaterial to them.

I don't believe that's a conscious, organized conspiracy, of course. It's a natural outgrowth creeping authoritarianism having supplanted classically liberal ideas on the political left. It explains why liberals such as myself have less and less in common with this new crop of liberalism, and why these neoliberals have such a psychotic fixation with being intellectually dishonest.

[–]VojvodaSrpski 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bigbossman123 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]deaftoexcuses 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]WTFOMGBBQ1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

feminism does not represent the entire left wing platform. Just like Natzism does not represent the entire right wing platform.

[–]BigGreyAlpaca -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]WTFOMGBBQ1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

just because i'm a man doesn't make me a rapist. categorizing anyone is not what we should be about.

[–]BigGreyAlpaca -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]WTFOMGBBQ1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

yeah, thats too many paragraphs and i really don't care, whatever floats your boat bro.. happy friday

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tmone 17 points18 points19 points 7 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]EsraYmssik 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]tmone 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]EsraYmssik 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]WTFOMGBBQ1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

We are still in Syria, just an fyi...

[–]WTFOMGBBQ1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DownrightCaterpillar 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]VojvodaSrpski 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]DownrightCaterpillar 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]VojvodaSrpski -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]DownrightCaterpillar 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

men and women are fundamentally different both biologically and psychologically

You do realize that the Y chromosome is the smallest of all human chromosomes, right? There are very few genes on it, it just barely does enough to make men significantly different from women. Tradcons like Ben Shapiro put way too much weight on biological differences to explain everything without providing a legitimate scientific basis for what biological difference causes which behaviors. So no, I don't think that men are genetically predisposed toward suicide. In fact women have higher levels of neuroticism, so I have no idea why you think this.

As for the fact that men and women are socialized differently, and therefore react differently to different situations, we're in agreement there. And I do believe that because men's problems are outright denied, and men are taught not to deal with their emotions in a healthy way, that ultimately men are driven to suicide more often than women because they feel they have no path toward a happy life. So I view the high suicide rate as purely the result of socialization.

As for what men should to do be truly happy, everybody has to ask themselves that question, because there is no blueprint for happiness. The idea that generally men should start a family and be a provider is absurd; have you looked at divorce rates? Have you seen how courts assess alimony and child support payments? Marriage and creating a nuclear family are unfavorable choices for men at this juncture. Your statement that:

Men like being men and doing most of those things, just like women naturally like being moms

Is pretty ignorant, as men are biologically designed to reproduce on literally a daily basis. There is no biological predisposition for men to settle down and start a family, that's a social construct built around what's convenient for women. And many women don't want to have children, as declining fertility rates demonstrate. So there is no clear answer on how to be truly happy, that's something every man and woman should explore on their own.

[–]immibis 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]VojvodaSrpski 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DownrightCaterpillar 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The ideal situation for an average man would be if he had one partner that was exclusive with him with who he also had children, and other temporary ”partners” on the side as he desired.

You do realize this is unsustainable, right? Unless the main female partner is polyamorous herself, there is no way (in a society with roughly equal numbers of men and women) for the average man to have a monogamous female partner as well as other female partners. If the average man monopolizes a female, that leaves almost no non-monogamous females to go around.

Aside from the impossibility of your model, MANY men don't want kids. I couldn't give you the %, but it's not a big secret that men are very divided on whether they want a "family" in the sense you're promoting. I get that many men subscribe to your blueprint but you're leaving out the sizeable number of men who want nothing to do with it, and that's the problem. You're creating an unreasonable expectation of how men "should be" and what constitutes success for men.

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blutarg 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]WTFOMGBBQ1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I guess if you consider politicians people, then you have a point. hahaha

[–]tmone -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]WTFOMGBBQ1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Flawless44 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Flawless44 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]VojvodaSrpski 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]auMatech -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]VojvodaSrpski 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]auMatech -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

So because most feminists are women, and most women according to what you wrote vote mostly left, feminism comes from the left?

While it might be the case that more liberals or left leaning people voice their views on this matter in favor of feministic tendencies, i don't think the correlation is entirely political.

As /u/WTFOMGBBQ correctly (in my opinion) states, we need to stop making men's rights about political orientation. In that notion I think we should also stop making misandry about political orientation.

Yes, I agree that it's become quite ingrained in certain political arguments and sides, but saying that most misandrists are libs or leftists is like using the feministic schtick of "not all men", or "men need to X", or "men are trash"... It shouldn't matter which side someone votes for since men's rights aren't constrained to a political hemisphere. They don't, or shouldn't affect men who vote left differently to men who vote otherwise.

[–]VojvodaSrpski 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]auMatech 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So you have me a bit confused now.. The initial response mentions:

I have to say, I'm tired of men's rights being compared to political orientation. Today I saw multiple "conservative" on face book white knighting and defending the ad, and many liberals bashing it.

We need to stop making men's rights about political orientation, men's rights are for everyone.

To which you replied

I absolutely agree with you. But let's not pretend like 99% of misandry isn't coming from the left. And 99% of those that want to help men are on the right.

But now:

I don't believe that we should stop making MR about political orientation, in fact, I'm convinced this is the crucial part of the whole problem.

I agree with you on the origin of Feminism, that much is certain. It's just not constrained to the left is all.

Much like how I don't think Men's rights shouldn't be constrained to just the political right. I think it just adds an unnecessary hurdle in trying to spread the message when a significant portion of the population is excluded from the message simply because of the way they vote.

[–]Chemicalit 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Chemicalit 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But assuming that men on the left are feminists is the equivalent to assuming that men on the right are neo-nazis.

I agree with this, although I don't think everyone is assuming everyone on the left is a Feminist. The hatred of the right is pretty much enforced on places like reddit/youtube which are run pretty much verbatim like r/Feminism

Just because I believe in a progressive and strong central government to support all humans in our country, should not mean I do not support rights for all people.

Thinking that a strong central government violates the principles of our nation and inevitably leads to tyranny and that adults should be able to support themselves shouldn't make me a "Misogynist".

Unfortunately the development of identity politics and the misuse of "-isms" (i.e. Sexism, Racism) as a term to denigrate political opponents has made this not the norm.

"You don't really care about x you just hate y!"

What we really need is to dissolve the two party system.

[–]Blutarg 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]geniice 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Solid_Rice 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sartyrh -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Chemicalit 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn -5 points-4 points-3 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]deaftoexcuses 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]deaftoexcuses 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I hate the left most of all because they're the ones who's bad behaviour is frequently excused by people like you. Also, I have actually gone after traditionalists on a regular basis, anyone who tries to socially engineer society is my enemy.

On the left there used to be genuinely intelligent people, but you've chased them away with your indifference to the political thugs and terrorists currently occupying your ideology. You along with plenty of other people have a deliberate blind spot to what the left does and I am simply here to counter it. The way the media covers for Antifa constantly is a classic example.

When you have actual gangs of roaming masked thugs going around the streets beating people up no matter how pathetic and hilarious they are yes I am going to stop you and what you're doing and I won't apologise for it.

[–]deaftoexcuses 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Masked thugs beating people as a manifestation of fanatical belief, happens for many misguided reasons. The right does it too. The media works for big business: they are gaming you mostly for the benefit of corporations and billionaires, who have long seen profit opportunites in encouraging conflict and division and then playing both sides.

And I was never indifferent, I briefly believed in feminism until I saw how supremacist and hypocritical it was. I was still in my teens when I started questioning these assumptions. I'm close to fifty now; as an essentially left winger, I've been a dissident of the left due to it's convolutions, for most of my life now. And frankly I see most people hammering the left but giving the callous and often classist behavior of the right, a near complete pass. I'd rather have compassion for all people in need, rather than only those with hoards to protect; while diminishing the value of lives that lack said property.

Despite the lip service, the right is downright callous to common people; and libertarianism (if fully applied), will simply lead to neo-feudalism. So I still believe in core left wing thought but it's disingenuous to imply, that I stand with the corrupt aspects of the left wing.

[–]Lethn 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]deaftoexcuses5 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Thesauruswrex 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]raffu280 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]joenastyness 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jerk_off_now1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Mens Rights is a equality movement. Its about changing society to be more equal. It is by nature a liberal concept.

[–]BigGreyAlpaca 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]Jerk_off_now1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you not feel that neoliberalism is beginning to yield to progressivism? Progressivism could be very sccessgul if they can avoid identity politics. Latinos are soon to be the largest voting bloc, also millenials. As boomers die, should we not see change? On the Christian Corporatist side, the closest thing they have is the alt right - Im not seeing much traction with that worldview because it inherently alienates centrists

[–]BigGreyAlpaca -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Progressivism is bigoted and hateful, it is the "White man bad" bloc of liberalism. Progressivism IS identity politics, and it needs to die.

Generation Z are not going to be voting left especially those young boys who are sick of being attacked by the left, you forgot the reality that the new Generation generally rebels against the dominant culture and the dominant culture presently is the anti-male "#KillAllMen"/"Airconditioner is sexist" left

Donald Trump just had Hispanic support shoot up 19% Amid the government shutdown and this is according to NPR a left-wing media source:
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/NPR_PBS-NewsHour_Marist-Poll-USA-NOS-and-Tables_1901141631-1.pdf#page=3

It is inherently racist to think that people won't stop voting for you because of their skin color, you are everything that the left should be ashamed of. You are the same party of people that actually lost to Donald Trump and now during a government shutdown he's gaining hispanic support. I haven't seen these levels of delusion since the media claimed Hillary had 99.9% chance of winning.

[–]Jerk_off_now1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]BigGreyAlpaca -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link