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Paternity fraud so common that 23andMe trains customer service to deal with it

pixelies

December 19, 2018
216 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/surprise-dna-results-are-turning-customer-service-reps-into-therapists#gs.ibWulR4
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Post Information
Title Paternity fraud so common that 23andMe trains customer service to deal with it
Author

pixelies

Upvotes 216
Comments 32
Date December 19, 2018 7:36 PM UTC
(7 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/a7pq1k/paternity_fraud_so_common_that_23andme_trains/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/paternity-fraud-so-common-that-23andme-trains.888025
https://theredarchive.com/post/888025
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Comments

[–]pixelies[S] 71 points72 points73 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

From the article: At 23andMe, those types of calls are so frequent that preparing for them is integrated into the company’s months-long training program. The most common issue, said Hillyer, is when a customer’s presumed father doesn’t show up on a test as the genetic dad. But sometimes mothers or siblings are a surprise, too.

“How most of those conversations start is people come to us to verify the accuracy,” said Hillyer. “Somebody has known something their whole life and then this company is telling them something different. It’s tough. And then it’s like, ‘Hey, I’m heading to a Thanksgiving dinner. Can you help me out with this before I go have this conversation with my mother?’”

[–][deleted] 30 points31 points32 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

HAhahah it's like a joke but for real.

[–]Blutarg 23 points24 points25 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dang, that's depressing. But not surprising.

[–]slixx_06 20 points21 points22 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Paternity fraud, the original identity fraud.

[–]DubsPackage 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The "official" nonpaternity rate according to the US govt is about %2-%3.

Colloquially everybody knows they're full of shit, these are the same people that say that inflation is %2 when the cost of everything has doubled and tripled in the last 30 years. Subway fare used to be 25 cents in the 1970's, in the 2000's it was $2.50, that's about %1000 increase. You can also look at the cost of bread, milk, gas, housing, almost anything, %2 inflation my ass.

Paternity fraud is conservatively %10, going up to about %30 in the black community.

[–]galtthedestroyer 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

https://www.google.com/search?q=million+dollars+or+penny+doubled&oq=million+dollars+penny&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.7713j0j4&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

The metaphor doesn't match exactly because inflation isn't 200%, but the point is that humans are bad at math. Inflation compounds on top of the last year.

[–]red_philosopher 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's difficult to say what the actual impact is, as it depends on what aspects you examine, and the effects of increased regulation on certain services/commodities, and the effects of subsidization that largely drive lower prices for certain commodities, when, in truth, everyone is paying for it in taxes.

The estimated inflation from 1970 to 2018, is about 650% (multiplicative, not additive), which is a compounded rate of ~3.98% per year.

Some things, like Milk and Eggs, are a modest 3.8->4 times higher, well below the 6.5 times average (economy of scale probably, but quality eggs easily top 8-10x higher, and quality milk easily does as well), bread is about 10x higher, new home costs are about 12.5x higher, car costs are 10x higher, gasoline is ~6.75x higher (pretty close to inflation), healthcare costs have skyrocketed almost 30x the rate of inflation, and rasing a kid has increased by about 7.2x, and average wages are about 11x greater pre-tax.

Things seem pretty good here, with wages being 11x greater-, but the average tax burden as a percentage, (federal income and payroll taxes), has increased from ~19.3% to ~30.8%.

This shifts the income gains to about 9.2x, which is still great, but it a doesn't include the fact that in 1970 only 28% of households had both parents working, compared to 61.1% today, and I can't extrapolate the impact of an over 100% increase in dual-income families. (It's not going to be insignificant).

This might explain why housing, transportation, and Healthcare have largely been priced out for the "traditional" family. Inflation in the 70s and 80s was crazy, and with so many more people entering the workforce (these are the feminist heydays of female labor), it's not surprising that the economy had to expand quickly in order to accommodate these people. But hey, I'm just an armchair guy.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just to let you know 2% compounded annually for 30 years is an 81% increase which is pretty close to doubling prices. Please check you math before ranting lol

[–]NecroHexr 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

r/nottheonion

[–]jp_mra 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I wonder if they are trained to say, "submit a test to our competitor to verify we didn't make a mistake"?

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

If it was 1 in 100, it would still be often enough that 23andMe staff had a case every week, I would think. So of course they train them in it. This doesn't say much about how common paternity fraud is.

Also, these are the children finding out their parents aren't who they thought they were. Paternity fraud may be a common explanation, but far from the only one. That the child didn't know, doesn't mean the father didn't know.

[–]red_philosopher 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Given that you don't know how often it occurs for real, the % of people who elect to take the tests, or what % of people who take the test, have these results, AND decide to call, this comes off as statistical grandstanding to downplay a very real issue facing men.

For example, ~0.005% of people in the USA are murderers (and we can all agree that murder is awful), and at least 200 times that number (according to your "even if 1%" bullshit, and it's almost all women committing paternity fraud) are financially eviscerating men fraudulently.

The actual numbers are probably far far higher, and if they train specifically for these calls, the company doesn't receive 50 calls annually over their entire enterprise. It'd be a rare and unusual call out of the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands they field annually. But it's so common that they train their employees how to handle them, because it's expected that they will field such calls routinely.

Estimated rates of paternity fraud are at least 1 in 10, and could be as high as 1 in 4.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Listen, I'm not saying paternity fraud doesn't matter, or isn't common. I'm just saying, it's not surprising 23andMe get many such calls. Even if it was really rare in their customer base (which I don't believe) they would still have to be prepared for plenty of such calls. So the argument is bad.

It must be OK to call out a bad argument, even when what it's arguing for is reasonable.

[–]red_philosopher 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Listen... ( xD Okay okay I had to tease here )

It may not be surprising to us specifically, but we're MRAs; we're well aware of the harm. However, generally the societal position is that paternity fraud or wrongful paternity simply doesn't happen at all, or doesn't happen with enough frequency, to warrant any kind of legitimate action.

Service desk type positions generally don't actively train people for specific call categories. They usually teach broadly applicable skills, like conflict resolution skills, interpersonal communication skills, systems training like how to use their knowledge base, escalation procedures, and the like. That they specifically have a module in their training program to handle a specific category of call speaks volumes. It means that they are frequent enough to be of concern to the company's bottom line, and of such a sensitive nature that it warrants spending lots of $$$ to handle them properly.

Otherwise they would use that time for other training, or only train call supervisors.

[–]pixelies[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The article literally says that paternity fraud is the most common issue. Quote: "At 23andMe, those types of calls are so frequent that preparing for them is integrated into the company’s months-long training program. The most common issue, said Hillyer, is when a customer’s presumed father doesn’t show up on a test as the genetic dad."

[+]geniice -27 points-26 points-25 points 7 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

"company’s months-long training program"

Things don't need to be common to appear in that. In any case Misattributed paternity (which is all that 23andMe can test for) is not the same as paternity fraud (since that requires that somebody knows that the designated father isn't).

[–]pixelies[S] 50 points51 points52 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

The mother certainly knew she was banging two dudes and that there was a chance the child didn't belong to the guy she pinned it on. That meets my definition of fraud.

[+]geniice -29 points-28 points-27 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

The mother certainly knew she was banging two dudes and that there was a chance the child didn't belong to the guy she pinned it on. That meets my definition of fraud.

That would make fraud convictions a lot more straightforward however current due process for fraud doesn't work like that. You need to be able to prove intent. See?

You've also got IVF cases like Annie Branum but in those cases it would probably be viable to prove fraud.

[–]Mode1961 31 points32 points33 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Intent: Hmmm, I was fucking two guys at around 9 months before my child was born, I told one of them they were the father, never mentioned anything about the other guys, sounds pretty straightforward INTENT to defraud to me.

another example: I sell a car and don't tell the buyer that if you use the left turn signal it will short out and cause a fire, pretty simple intent to defraud.

[+]geniice -23 points-22 points-21 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Intent: Hmmm, I was fucking two guys at around 9 months before my child was born, I told one of them they were the father, never mentioned anything about the other guys, sounds pretty straightforward INTENT to defraud to me.

Nope. Intent in this case means that you would have to honestly belive that the other guy was the father.

another example: I sell a car and don't tell the buyer that if you use the left turn signal it will short out and cause a fire, pretty simple intent to defraud.

It would be fairly difficult to get someone for fraud in such a case (now if they had claimed the car had a MOT when it didn't we might have something). In the cases where it would be illegal (and it wouldn't always be) it would fall under consumer protection legislation.

[–]lasciate 18 points19 points20 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When you know a situation requires due diligence to be performed failure to perform it or deciding not to do it in order to maintain deniability does not absolve you of responsibility.

Hodge v. Craig out of Tennessee established intent solely based on the mother's failure to inform a defrauded father that other possible candidates existed.

[–]grandmasbroach 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just curious. You have heard of hyperbole, right? It kind of doesn't seem like it...

[–]Dancing_Anatolia 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Omission of a relevant fact is a lie.

[–]pixelies[S] 25 points26 points27 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not making a legal argument. I'm using the words themselves to describe a social phenomenon. Paternity = biological father. Fraud = deception with the intent of personal gain.

If a woman has sex with two guys and gets pregnant, she doesn't know who the father is. This could potentially have negative consequences for her. If she decides to hide that fact to avoid the consequences, she's engaging in deception for personal gain.

[–]Tgunner192 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It might not be criminal or prosecutable fraud, but it sure as fuck is fits the definition of fraud. A woman tells someone he's the father of a baby when it's 50/50 at best and someone doesn't know that's fraudulent? What is wrong with you?

[–]pixelies[S] 26 points27 points28 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Also, you omitted the very next sentence. "The most common issue, said Hillyer, is when a customer’s presumed father doesn’t show up on a test as the genetic dad." So, even if you claim it's not common, it is still the most common issue that arises.

[+]xNOM -15 points-14 points-13 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The most accurate study measuring misattributed paternity in areas of Germany and Switzerland gave a 1% rate. Less accurate studies from England give rates up to 10% in economically run-down areas.

[–]pixelies[S] 12 points13 points14 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Campus rape occurs at a much smaller rate than that, deceptive statistics aside, and yet, it's a huge issue.

[–]RacelessSexlessName 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Makes me wonder whether we can get an entire town to do dna tests for a paternity study... and who you could get to fund such a thing. We all know no women' group would dare fund such a study...

[–]mikesteane 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How do you know the studies are less accurate?

[–]xNOM 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Discussed in this paper

https://www.reddit.com/r/mensrightslinks/comments/3jyjb3/medicalstudy_measuring_paternal_discrepancy_and/

The difference in the estimate accuracies has to do with the "randomness" of the sample and the testing method. In the German study they used DNA testing which was required for a rare disease in a place where everyone has the same healthcare and similar genetics. The British studies are extrapolated from voluntary blood type tests. The 1% figure is expected to be a lower limit worldwide because Germany is highly developed. But make no mistake, 1% is huge. That would be 3 million US children.

It's like child custody statistics. There isn't a lot of good data.

EDIT just occurred to me that maybe people are thinking that there is just one worldwide rate. There isn't. The rate is going to be hugely different depending on where you measure it.

[–]mikesteane 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

good answer. upvoted.

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