Mens rights activists should take a stronger voice supporting feminist

hixidom · 2018-01-31T07:29:11+00:00

I'm all for equality between the sexes. I will shout, until I'm blue in the face, that I believe men and women can and should be treated equally in the law despite our differences.

That, however, is not modern feminism.

Modern feminism is about victimization. It's about the patriarchy, and bigotry, and infantizing women while demonizing men. It's "intellectual" shortcuts to supremacy.

I will not support that.

hixidom · 2018-01-31T08:51:48+00:00

For the record, I've only been here a few months but I have always found MRAs to be very clear about their beef being with feminism, not women or women's rights. This is after years of putting up with feminists saying shit like "All men are trash" and calling me a misogynist/censoring me simply for making rational observations and asking polite questions. Heck, the reason I stuck here is that MRAs are so open to criticism and thorough consideration of the facts whereas feminists have never been willing to have a civil or factual conversation with me. Seriously, I used to be just like you, but even being a friendly person feminists have done and said terrible things to me. Those experiences combined with all of the facts I have been exposed to about men's rights (or rather the lack thereof) have forever turned me against [modern] feminism.

This was my serendipitous starting point right here: A TED talk by Cassie Jaye. Her message is undeniably reasonable and compassionate and MRAs seem to love this woman to death (for obvious reasons). The stuff she talks about is a blueprint for the type of culture that MRAs want and society needs. The sad thing is that MRAs have been trying to bring awareness to this perspective for many decades, while feminists have consistently opposed it because it conflicts with their dogmatic counterfactual narrative that "women are the oppressed and men are the oppressors [and deserve to be treated as such]".

I see you posted in Feminism sub titled "you cant be a true feminist without recognizing mens rights also". Much respect. I'm sure you're a good person. I see that your post was removed, and that's not at all a surprise to me. If you care about men's rights as well as women's, then that's great: I don't even have to tell you how bad feminists are because you will find out for yourself.

rodrigogirao · 2018-01-31T08:44:57+00:00

And blacks should take a stronger voice supporting the Klan.

HotDealsInTexas · 2018-01-31T18:15:16+00:00

No, and go fuck yourself.

Feminists are NOT for equality. They don't just focus on women's issues, as you seem to be claiming, they actively oppose progress on men's issues. And this doesn't just include social issues, it includes matters of equal treatment under the law. Feminists consistently OPPOSE giving men the legal right to opt out of parenthood, a right which women in the US already have through both abortion and safe haven laws. Throughout years of talking to Feminists about this issue, including years of participating on FeMRADebates, a sub which inherently has a selection bias towards more moderate Feminists who are willing to try to engage with MRAs without name-calling, I don't think a single goddamn one has supported this. And I've lost count of how many Feminists who have admitted to believing that consent to sex is consent to parenthood, but only for men (note that under US law you don't even need to consent to sex - adult women have fucked underage boys, gotten pregnant, and successfully sued for child support. Even if they weren't convicted, it's literally impossible for the sex they claim resulted in conception to be consensual under the law. I haven't seen many Feminists admit that this should be changed either). Again, this isn't even something like the sentencing gap which could be the result of biased individuals enforcing fair laws, this is the law explicitly treating women better than men.

What's the mainstream Feminist stance on other important men's issues? Hmm...

Circumcision/MGM: To be fair, a decent number of Feminists agree that chopping off part of a nonconsenting boy's penis without a good medical reason is wrong. On the other hand, they can't do it without about a paragraph of "Well, FGM is worse in every possible way" qualifiers, and a lot of them will get mad if you even call it MGM and accuse you of minimizing the suffering of FGM victims. And I sure as hell haven't seen any large Feminist organization organize a "stop cutting our sons" march on the American Academy of Pediatrics or anything like that. Again, this is a basic matter of equal treatment under the law. In every developed country, girls are legally protected from nonmedical genital mutilation and boys aren't.

Bias against men in family courts: HA HA HA HA HA. The National Organization of Women, the US's largest Feminist organization, has lobbied against bills that would make 50/50 custody the default, and IIRC they cited abusive men as a reason to not do so.

Bias against men in the rest of the legal system, prison sentencing, etc: (crickets). Oh, no wait, Feminists have actually taken action on this... some of the less moderate ones have launched campaigns to reduce or even eliminate prison sentences for women... for any crime. And they've even cited 90+% of the prison population being male as a reason why women should be prioritized because "the system is designed for men" and therefore prison is extra-bad for women or something. I am not making this shit up.

Widening education gap between girls and boys: Don't worry, Feminism is On The Case!... by constantly pushing to make the few majors that aren't female-dominated female-dominated. Meanwhile, when a private scholarship in Australia for veterinary medicine (90% female there IIRC) stated a preference for men, which is actually NEEDED because female vets are far less likely to specialize in large animals and set up rural practices, leading to an actual shortage of vets for livestock, Feminists protested.

Treatment of male victims of domestic violence: Feminist groups actively made this WORSE by campaigning to get the Duluth Model (in a nutshell, claims domestic abuse is all male-on-female because Patriarchy and women only act in self defense or something like that) enshrined in the policies of police departments.

Treatment of false accusations of sex crimes against men: these crickets are going to make me deaf. There are two kinds of Feminists: those that believe false rape accusations against men do not exist, and those who believe that they're so rare they might as well not exist. All the various extrajudicial court systems designed to railroad men into punishment for sex crimes without that inconvenient burden of proof, including the college tribunals and IIRC some weird special courts set up in Canada, have been pushed for by Feminist groups. The ONLY time I have ever heard of a Feminist group taking false accusations seriously are the times when groups in Israel and India lobbied against making the definition of rape gender-neutral because male rapists could falsely accuse their female victims of rape. Again, this is not made up.

Basically, Feminism's track record on pretty much every significant men's issue is either "Consistently oppose helping / support shit that makes the issue worse," "small minority actively opposes helping / supports making it worse, silent majority doesn't give a shit," or "claims to be 'helping' but does so in a demeaning or counterproductive way" (i.e. blaming all of men's issues on "Toxic Masculinity" and saying that if men would just be more like women everything would be fine. Oh, and they also vehemently oppose the existence of gender equality movements that aren't Feminist.

So fuck off, I'm not supporting a movement that actively works against men's rights on every single issue, including opposing the existence of advocacy groups for men's rights. I'll be happy to support women's rights groups that aren't Feminist, or even support Feminist campaigns on specific women's issues in the unlikely event that one ever doesn't categorically blame the problem on men and throw men under the bus, but I won't support Feminism^TM .

splodgenessabounds · 2018-01-31T08:51:26+00:00

Given that modern Feminism continues to push for rights women already have, and given the inequalities (at law, in health, homelessness, codes relating to sexual consent) that men are subject to resulting from that continual push, I would like to know why you state "we" should support an ideology that not only does nothing for men and boys but does much to subordinate us.

FYI most of us here recognise there are legitimate issues that affect women.

Historybuffman · 2018-01-31T10:15:42+00:00

While I have problems with first and second wave feminism, I support and commend those feminists overall.

First wave wanted women to have the right to vote and didn't care that poor, landless men couldn't. But when lawmakers were writing the law, they decided to throw us in. I wonder why, women voters would outnumber them. So it isn't like it was out of benevolence, but hey, we can vote.

Second wave was saying women workers were not being paid equally. Well, women just started working jobs and were most likely not paid as much. Back then, people were not as PC as we are now. I could see a male foreman back then saying "You do half the work, you get half the pay".

But modern feminism? They use pseudo-science and try to pass it off as real. Intersectionality is a theory that is heavily criticized. The "wage gap" doesn't exist once you account for hours worked, different jobs, positions, or education.

I got bored over the last couple days and decided to glance through r/askfeminists and r/feminism and there is some serious shit. I saw a thread asking if whites or men can be discriminated against and they fed that person their usual bs: racism = prejudice + power. And then side stepped clarifying questions. It was quite telling.

So no, as long as modern feminism allows for unequal treatment of sexes, allows their group to advocate for the killing or suppression of men, and seeks preferential treatment (privilege), they will find an enemy in me.

If they flip over to wanting equality? Sure.

EricAllonde · 2018-01-31T11:21:11+00:00

i think that we should be more vocal

Don't say "we" in this sub when you're a feminist. I reject that label and refuse to be lumped in with feminists. I believe most subscribers here feel the same.

furchfur · 2018-01-31T11:26:05+00:00

Feminism is male hate movement, do you not realise! There is no chance I will ever support them. My wife and two daughters despise feminists.

2018-01-31T12:15:31+00:00

I support those who support equality, like CH Sommers, Erin Pizzey, Warren Ferrel... regardless of what they choose to identify as. Sommers still clings to the movement despite them ousting her, Pizzey never was a part of it and was mistreated by feminists and threatened by them, Ferrel was kicked out for talking about men's issues.

So no thanks. I don't need feminism to support equality. Nobody does. Pizzey is one of the best people that has ever tried to help people overcome domestic abuse and she's never needed feminism to do it. So why do I need it? I don't.

We need to stop acting like the only way to support equal rights is through feminism. Because it isn't the only way, and it isn't pushing for equality either. I think feminism does more harm to women's rights and women's well being than anything else out there in the first world. Which is why I've never considered myself a feminist. I don't see the good in convincing women that regret sex that they were raped. I don't think it's good for anybody to define themselves as victims. I respect women too much to treat them like children, and blame their personal choice of being a teacher or social worker on the evil brain washing patriarchy. I respect women too much to deny facts and reality to see them as victims of everything. And it just so happens that feminism actively harms men as well.

Feminism; not even once.

Splatriarchy · 2018-01-31T19:07:36+00:00

When there is a war waged against you you don't support the enemy. Feminists DO NOT FIGHT FOR EQUALITY they seek to destroy men and elevate women. I am all for equality but I cannot support a group that clearly is not.

eightgaydiamonds · 2018-01-31T16:33:57+00:00

Yes co-opt the movement for feminism.

Splatriarchy · 2018-01-31T19:11:39+00:00

Look at OP's history. He is gay and bashes anyone who supports men's rights. We have a white knight here people.

2018-01-31T19:19:02+00:00

Anybody want to guess if he was banned from /r/feminism for posting that "feminists must support men's rights if they're truly feminist"?

DavidByron2 · 2018-01-31T23:32:00+00:00

Feminism is a hate movement.

bag_of_shitty_ideas · 2018-02-01T00:23:37+00:00

Feminism does not want equal rights. They want more rights for women, regardless of what men get. They're selfish and blind to the plight of men.

2018-02-01T08:28:58+00:00

I spent the first half of my life being concerned with women’s problems. The problem with this, is that everyone is concerned with women’s problems.

I could spend the rest of my life advocating on men’s issues and saying “that’s a pity” to women’s, and it still wouldn’t balance the scale.

Don’t listen to women any more. It’s a one way street. Men are much too eager to listen to and assist women. Women are nearly completely unwilling to listen to and assist men.

There may come a time when male issues are receiving too much attention, and female issues ignored. In which case I will change my stance. But I would bet everything I own it won’t happen in my lifetime.

So take your “MRA’S should advocate for women too” and blow it out your ass. The majority of us are here because we have found that neither feminists or the limp wristed “don’t you see, both camps have legitimate points” equalists ask the hard questions.

An equalist is just someone who isn’t hypocritical enough to flat out deny male gender inequality, but who is also too much of a pussy to stand up to feminists.

iainmf · 2018-02-01T09:45:52+00:00

I support women's rights and also oppose feminism.

I also support individual feminists.

The problem is the feminist theory and the actions of influential feminists harm men, and I can't support that.

2018-02-04T01:57:59+00:00

Blacks should take a stronger voice supporting the KKK

Literally what you just said

ee4m · 2018-01-31T09:21:49+00:00

If mras were more focused on working class issues - like ending homelessness and mass incarceration of black men in america, it wouldnt have an image problem.

Fact is, so long as the economics and politics are right wing for a large group here - attacking the sick, the poor, the weak, women, the homeless, immigrants and not the powerful men on top - this movement will be seen as cowardly and dishonerable whether or not it kowtows to white elite feminism or not.

Title	Mens rights activists should take a stronger voice supporting feminist
Author	Charlespry
Upvotes	0
Comments	43
Date	January 31, 2018 7:17 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7u87af/mens_rights_activists_should_take_a_stronger/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mens-rights-activists-should-take-a-stronger-voice.906743 https://theredarchive.com/post/906743

Comments

Look at OP's history. He is gay and bashes anyone who supports men's rights. We have a white knight here people.