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Why mensrights must be socialist; "the greater the societal inequality and instability, the more the groups on top of society tend to support a hierarchy between groups, protecting their own privileged status.

Lrellok

May 11, 2017
4 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/05/02/1616572114
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Title Why mensrights must be socialist; "the greater the societal inequality and instability, the more the groups on top of society tend to support a hierarchy between groups, protecting their own privileged status.
Author

Lrellok

Upvotes 4
Comments 43
Date May 11, 2017 8:35 PM UTC
(9 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6amta1/why_mensrights_must_be_socialist_the_greater_the/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-mensrights-must-be-socialist-the-greater-the.922905
https://theredarchive.com/post/922905
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Comments

[–]SantaOrange 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm a socialist (anarchist) but there is no reason MRA's "must" be socialist.

Most MRA issues require no political affiliation. Things like shared parenting, MGM, alimony reform, due process rights, recognition of male victims of domestic violence and sexual assault, etc. etc.

I agree with your premise though: the glass cellar is full of men. Broader issues like homelessness, workplace safety, even social issues like hypergamy (which increases with inequality) cannot be solved by free market capitalism.

[–]ProudandConservative 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

They can't be solved by socialism either.

[–]heimdahl81 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Like many things in life, moderation is the key. Any socio-economic philosophy taken to the extreme is disastrous. Capitalist principles are desirable when innovation is necessary and failure is acceptable (tech, entertainment). Socialist principles are necessary when social stability is necessary and failure is unacceptable (healthcare, education).

[–]omegaphallic 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Each to there own sphere. That's actually a good way of putting that.

[–]omegaphallic 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree.

[–]DavidByron2 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I think the less equality there is the less room for men's equal rights. Men are the disposable sex and in an unequal society you need a lot of disposable people -- which will be men.

[–]Mens-Advocate 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What is this drivel doing on the PNAS website?

[–]aussietoads 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

" Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill.

[–]Lrellok[S] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Said a drunk who nearly destroyed his nation if a bunch of former colonists had not dicided to share their production with him.

[–]aussietoads 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The same drunkard who prevented you from having to goose step your allegiance to a national socialist.

[–]Lrellok[S] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I live in the united states. Do you have any idea the likelyhood of germany winning an invasion? They could not eve beat russia, and russia was using horses and biplanes at the start of the war.

[–]aussietoads 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What do you think the outcome would have been had Churchill not opposed the national socialists of Germany. Do you think Russia would have won if the Germans were only fighting on the Russian front. As it is, the USA only won (without millions more casualties) against the Japanese thanks to the non-socialist German nuclear scientists who defected to the west and helped the US to build the first nuclear weapons. Had they not defected or actively sabotaged the reicht's attempts, the first atomic weapon would have been built and used by socialist Germany.

[–]galtthedestroyer 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nazis weren't socialist. It was just hip to call yourselves socialist at the time.

[–]William__F0ster 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Is this a joke?

[–]Lrellok[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

No, I am quite serios. As men are the "disposable" sex, any shortfall will result in men being disposed of. Thus, we must ensure shelter, food and clothing to all in order for men to no longer be disposable.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That is a non-sequitur and an absolute absurdity. You are a prime example of an over-educated idiot. Shove your socialism up your ass.

[–]galtthedestroyer 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not over educated. Under educated idiot who has read just enough to blurt out "smart" words.

[–]Lrellok[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

explain, without ad hominems this time. We already have arguments that men are no longer necessary to society. Historically socially undesirable men have been used as cannon fodder in wars, or shipped off on dangerous and likely fatal enterprises. Just this month we saw posts on MGTOW declaring that short men had no right to exist. How is this a non sequiter, that those considered disposable will be the first to be disposed of?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think extra government spending can solve any gendered issues. Only changing the laws will fix that.

[+]dfhghdfhgfddgfh points 9 years ago* [recovered] (20 children) | Copy Link

Is this a joke? Feminism is inherently Marxist/socialist and has been since the mid-1800s if not before. That’s the entire idea—to pool resources so that women need not be tethered to a man (i.e. women deserve free birth control, abortions, healthcare, [college???], etc.).

The entire reason we are in this mess is because “common knowledge” isn’t actually truth, and it turns out that we have inherent biases that cause us to raise women above men, therefor in a socialist society women will be above men…which is almost exactly like what feminist liberalism is doing, is it not? Yes. When people go "I think it would be good to raise children androgynously, that sounds good, that feels right" without measuring reality, then you get this bullshit where boys are doormats and the women are complaining about where are the "real men." Because, at the end of the day, all that hand wringing meant nothing, nothing changed.

[insert Tobias Funke]

“This time it will be different.”

[–]Lrellok[S] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be confusing marxism/socialism with fuedalism. Socialsim states that what is produced by all should be shared by all. The original formulation was, "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their contributions."

[–]SantaOrange 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Is this a joke? Feminism is inherently Marxist/socialist and has been since the mid-1800s if not before.

Incorrect. First wave feminists were mostly rich Christian women. The first (and perhaps best) critique of feminism was written by a socialist (Earnest Belford Bax). The best academic work on misandry was also written by a socialist (Paul Nathanson).

There is nothing inherent to socialism that requires men being treated unfairly. Radical feminist theory (patriarchy) was actually introduced to the left by the Ford and Rockefeller foundations, ie the great capitalists. Socialism doesn't require "ending gender roles" either, as can seen in the Israeli Kibbutz. Mother Jones supported "traditional gender roles" and was a socialist/anarchist.

[+]dfhghdfhgfddgfh points 9 years ago* [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

Incorrect. Feminist theories and ideas have exists since at least Lysistrata. Stop staring at your navel.

[–]SantaOrange 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Feminist theories and ideas have exists since at least Lysistrata

You're the one who referred to the mid-1800's. Like I said, first wave feminists were mostly rich Christian women, not socialists.

[–]aussietoads 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Christianity may have been their religion, but not necessarily their political leaning. Obviously you have never heard of Christian Socialists.

[–]SantaOrange 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm aware of them. There were some socialist feminists, and some feminists who (for example) thought blacks were subhuman and that only propertied women and men should be allowed to vote. It is simply wrong to claim that the movement was a Marxist invention.

[+]dfhghdfhgfddgfh points 9 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

You used three disparate examples which all use different metrics which is an incredibly dishonest way to debate. Critiques can be found which show the kibbutz to be inherently feminist, and there is no dictum that states that a successful person in a capitalist society be a capitalist, nor that one on welfare be a socialist.

[–]SantaOrange 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You're the one who dishonestly claimed that feminism was founded by Marxists. There were socialist feminists, there were socialists who rejected feminism, and there were right wing feminists who thought only propertied men and women should be allowed to vote.

[+]dfhghdfhgfddgfh points 9 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

It is inherently socialist and has been tied to maxism since its advent.

[–]SantaOrange 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Not at all. There are plenty of liberal capitalist feminists and always has been. In fact they are probably the strong majority.

Feminism isn't inherently socialist. In fact the modern version has essentially replaced class analysis with "patriarchy" analysis, and is therefore contrary to socialism.

[+]dfhghdfhgfddgfh points 9 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Any separation of feminism and socialism is academic in nature and not prone to playing out in reality.

[–]galtthedestroyer 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Refusal feminist theory was introduced by Ford and Rockefeller in order to sabotage feminism. It has the desired effect. Feminism has gone off the deep end in exactly the way Ford had hoped.

[+]dfhghdfhgfddgfh points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be confusing marxism/socialism with fuedalism.

What are you talking about? Are you in high school? Feudalism?

a remarkable idea. I am a Socialist, Smurov.”

“And what is a Socialist?” asked Smurov.

“That's when all are equal and all have property in common, there are no marriages, and every one has any religion and laws he likes best, and all the rest of it. You are not old enough to understand that yet. It's cold, though.”

Fyodor Dostoyevsky

[–]Lrellok[S] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

You do know dostoyevsky wrote dry satire right? Let's try a slightly more nuanced definition.

Now, suppose that this daily social task consists in the ploughing, hoeing, or reaping of two square decameters, and that the average time required to accomplish it is seven hours: one laborer will finish it in six hours, another will require eight; the majority, however, will work seven. But provided each one furnishes the quantity of labor demanded of him, whatever be the time he employs, they are entitled to equal wages. Shall the laborer who is capable of finishing his task in six hours have the right, on the ground of superior strength and activity, to usurp the task of the less skilful laborer, and thus rob him of his labor and bread? Who dares maintain such a proposition? He who finishes before the others may rest, if he chooses; he may devote himself to useful exercise and labors for the maintenance of his strength, and the culture of his mind, and the pleasure of his life. This he can do without injury to any one: but let him confine himself to services which affect him solely. Vigor, genius, diligence, and all the personal advantages which result therefrom, are the work of Nature and, to a certain extent, of the individual; society awards them the esteem which they merit: but the wages which it pays them is measured, not by their power, but by their production. Now, the product of each is limited by the right of all. -- proudhon, what is property?

What, might I equire, is your objection, other then that you will not be able to perpetuate the very status heirarchy we need to get rid of?

[+]dfhghdfhgfddgfh points 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, the piece is clearly satire about the pie-in-the-sky idealism of socialism in the face of raw human reality.

You're using "enquire" to sound smart. Stop being stupid.

What, might I equire, is your objection, other then that you will not be able to perpetuate the very status heirarchy we need to get rid of?

By what metrics and vectors? How will this be done? What about other elements of humanity?

[–]Lrellok[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

https://librivox.org/the-conquest-of-bread-by-peter-kropotkin/

One of the things I respect about athiests is that they read the relevant texts before critequing them.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Socialism is one of the most evil and destructive systems ever devised. Fuck socialism. Go shove it up your ass, you fucking commie piece of shit.

[–]Lrellok[S] -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

ah hominems are the sign of an argument lost, sir. The fact that you start with them....

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You, like many idiots, have completely misunderstood what ad hominem means.

[–]Satansyngel -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

As long as it's the national variant.

[–]Incident-Pit 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Fuck off back to /pol/

[–]Satansyngel 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Good argument

[–]Moonvie 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

F-fuck off back to /pol/

T-the Russians did it

I'm fascinated by the process in which you turn into the very thing you were supposed to oppose.

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