I had an argument with my mom, and she seemed pretty convincing. Thoughts?

Imnotmrabut · 2016-08-30T08:57:25+00:00

Her main points were the constant objectification of women in the media (which she said was worse with women) and how catcalling happens so often, and the sex trafficking that's still going on and apparently nobody's outraged about it.

Objectification - get her to explain this then Man getting "Harassment' In NYC!

Ask her if it's acceptable to treat GAY men as Sisters and assume all GAY men are available to all women?

Sex Trafficking? Does she even know the figures for the USA where Males (especially minors) get sexually exploited at the same rates as females?

How about the cover up of the issues for decades - Lost Boys, Village Voice 2011

... and don't forget the issues of Forced Labour and Slavery which affects men at far higher levels in the US.... It's fascinating to see just how The US State Department make everything about the USA Gender Neutral in the Annual "Trafficking In Persons" (TIP) Report and leave the mythology of gendered exploitation affecting women the most being implied at all stages.

http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2016/index.htm

Maybe Your Mother needs to look at some facts and read widely on the Issue of the feminist Mythology called Rape Culture - so here are some flash cards for her to dismiss and ignore because they contain inconvenient truths that undermine the Feminine Mystique and Feminist Woozles.

dingoperson2 · 2016-08-30T09:31:58+00:00

Re the media:

There's a great number of movies out there that include large groups of people fighting. War movies are a case in point, but a lot more than that, e.g. Game of Thrones. In most cases we know nothing about the people we see dying en masse, not their names or thoughts or lives, and they are virtually all men.

Women have it comparatively good. We never see thousands upon thousands of women slaughtered in the mud.

Re "objectification":

It's a bullshit word. You might ask her to define it. It has no clear definition, but a lot of vague shit like "treat like an object". But seeing an attractive woman does not mean that a man would treat her like an object. He would not buy or sell her, he would not keep her in the shed or throw her away or sell her on Craigslist if she breaks. To say that when a man thinks a woman looks sexy he treats a woman like an object, with the understanding that he doesn't care about her more than he would care about a chair or a table, is both intensely paranoid and intensely bigoted. Thinking that a woman looks sexy doesn't rule out wanting to get to know her, hoping she feels well or spending time with her.

And you can ask how much she cares about the people who empty your trash, almost certainly men. Does she care about their lives and wants to get to know them? What has she done to get to know them? If the answer is "very little", is she objectifying them, by treating them as functions and objects and things and machines? What about the miners who mined the metal her things are made off?

PM_ME____FOR_SCIENCE · 2016-08-30T09:00:19+00:00

An important thing to understand about rape (and relatedly, violence) is it's lower than it's been at any point in human history.

What has changed is mass media -- we hear about bad stuff happening much more often and widely than we used to.

But we're actually much safer today than our grandparents were (by a factor of about 2.5x in the case of rape) -- and they in turn were safer than their own grandparents were.

Human society has progressed a heck of a lot in the past 100-200 years.. The 20th century was the least violent century in human history. The 21st is on pace to be even more peaceful, on a per capita basis.

To ignore that, and to obsess about the bad things you read and hear about -- well, it doesn't make much sense.

Human beings are biologically built for violence/cheating/taking advantage of other humans, as well as for happy cooperation with other humans. Read a good popular science book on this kind of subject -- a favorite of mine is 'The Moral Animal' by Robert Wright -- and you'll learn quite a bit.

BlightedArrow91 · 2016-08-30T08:45:42+00:00

Much of what she has said is frankly "feelz" and not realz.

it is paranoia that she is experiencing after being told by varous news outlets and feminist organizations that men are evil rapists, and will rape a woman without a second thought and that women get raped on the streets literally every day.

these statements are outright lies, and are fear mongering spread by the mass media

Street rape is at an all time low, and most rapes happen from family members or close friends, so her worry of rape happening randomly when she goes out at night....is literally pure paranoia, and in the 1 in 5 stat is blatantly false as well( will be posting a citation from the CDC at the bottom for you to utilize as evidence.)

On the medias portrayal of women, she is once again false. yes, women are portrayed in movies and television usually as incredibly attractive, but they are also almost unilateraly portrayed as smart, charismatic, charming, independant, wily, wise, sly, and capable of getting their way when neccesary.

Men however while still in most ways being portrayed as once again, an object of sexual desire as women are, We also get a secondary stereotype that can actually be fused with the first portrayal sometimes, that portrayal is: the lazy buffoon who wouldn't survive without his wife.

Homer simpson, the guy from king of queens. tim allen in ANY sitcom he was in pretty much every sitcom on television.

We have two types of stereotypes, hyper agressive douche canoe manly man who can crush beer cans with his eyelids and party with jesus christ.

and the lazy fat ignorant idiot who can only do so much before his incredibly beautiful and intelligent wife saves the day for him.

once again, men ARE objectified in the media, you can literally just go ahead and link to ANY female ran news site during the olympics where some(i believe cosmo did as well) have full blown fucking articles on "the junk of the mens olympic swimming team"

So objectification being the cause behind some sort of rape culture is unsound as well, objectifying happens to both genders, yet you don't see a sudden uprise of rapes of swimmers after the olympics now do you?

catcalling being utilized as proof of rape culture is utterly nonsensical in my books as well, as it is the actions of a douchebag and nothing more, someone who cat calls, isn't going to walk up behind you grab you and go "YOUR PUSSIES MINE MWAHAHAHAHAAHAHA" by catcalling he's already exposed to any witnesses nearby that A) he's a fuckwit B) he's interested in that woman.

if ther was a rape that occured after that, he would be the FIRST suspect.

Rape culture also, in its own words, describes a culture in which rape runs prominent and NOONE does anything about it, ask yourself, really ask yourself, does that sound like our society? do we not imprison rapists to the fullest extent of the law? do we not put them on sexual offender lists for almost their entire lives? do we not shun and hate them and do most men not rankly have the urge to actually murder them?

We do not live in a rape culture, saudi arabia is a rape culture, pakistan is a rape culture, shit germany on new years eve was a rape culture, america and canada are NOT rape cultures.

Citations:

CDC rape data: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

portrayal of men in media: http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2013-02-why-arent-more-real-men-portrayed-in-the-media

here is an image showing exactly how the rape stats and the "1 in 5" stat don't measure up at all: http://imgur.com/Fb4KveY

edit: feel free to hit me with a message if you have any extra concersn or questions, my sister and mother are both similar in mindset so i know how frustrating and stressful it can be to discuss this sort of stuff with family without getting heated and possibly causing an issue out of a mere discussion, so feel free to ask for a few talking points with them as well!

MRA-automatron-2kb · 2016-08-30T18:56:57+00:00

Show your mom this:

3 in 4 B.C. boys on street sexually exploited by women

.

http://canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Vancouver_Sun_3_in_4_Boys_on_Street_Sexually_Exploited_by_Women_27MAY08.aspx

ThePigmanAgain · 2016-08-30T11:03:17+00:00

Your mother is a moron, but since you are only 15 there is not much you can do except smile and say, "Yes, mommy dearest." Then, on the day you turn 18, get the hell out of there.

Rasalom72 · 2016-08-30T09:30:41+00:00

Just ask her when the last time that she or your sister were ACTUALLY RAPED? I bet it was zero... and if so, how can she claim to live in a rape culture if neither of them were raped yet (assume your mom is in her 40s).... so for 40 years, she hasn't been raped...in a rape culture.

Her fear of something happening does not equate with it actually happening.

omegaphallic · 2016-08-30T11:35:56+00:00

On sex trafficing, send her to the naked anthropologist blog.

http://www.lauraagustin.com/

What your mom calls sexual objectifican I call natural and healthy male sexuality.

As for you Mom being raped out of nowhere by a stranger, that's extremely rare, so rare newspapers report on it. Very,very few rapists hide in bushes waiting for women to pass by.

I'd offer more, but I just tooth surgury done on me last night and I pretty fucked up right now.

MagicTampon · 2016-08-30T17:32:14+00:00

2016-08-30T19:13:05+00:00

objectification of

Something that causes no harm, and is extremely subjective. Also no citations.

catcalling happens so often,

The above, also it applies to men.

rape culture.

Citation needed

sex trafficking

Poverty problem, not gender problem.

who have been raped and either didn't report it

Statistics, again.

She cited Brock Turner as an example.

Your mum has a very small understand of the concept of "proof" and "sample size"

she's constantly afraid

Feelings, humans tend to have them. If I were alone in the dark woods I'd be scared to. For no reason at all, statistically speaking. Unless you live in africa and get eaten by cannibals/lions.

I don't really want to go into another argument without evidence.

Feminists tend not to have evidence, some might even find science itself sexist.

I'm 15 btw.

Put effort into school, get good grades, and get a good job. Good luck with your life

roharareddit · 2016-08-30T22:36:54+00:00

Probably important to mention, she was raped by her hussband and her church didn't care and accepted him back into the church.

Did your Mom go to the police or did she just tell everyone in his church that he raped her? If it is the latter that is a red flag, a BIG red flag. Is this your dad she is talking about? If her husband whom she accused isn't your dad how does she talk about your Dad?

I know this sounds divisive but you are getting old enough now when you need to start asking questions like this. I am not saying your Mom is a liar, but I am saying that you need to start asking.

TimeTravel101 · 2016-08-30T11:47:31+00:00

It is true that women are objectified. It's bad when you are not blessed with a natural beauty. But they make it worse by getting fat and acting crazy.

Tori-amos-inc · 2016-08-30T08:39:35+00:00

Ask her how many boys are stolen and sent into Sex trafficking?

Ask her how many men have had their life savings stolen by women (much worse than rape)

Ask her how many times has she been raped in her whole life.

Ask how many of her friends have been raped while walking home at night. Ask for evidence always. If they have no evidence, it did not hapen.

Ask her why the women in the ads are allowing themselves to be objectified? Do they drop their values for cash knowing they damage they are doing to women or are they empowering themselves?

Ask about regret rape.

That should keep her busy for a while.

ichors · 2016-08-30T09:37:47+00:00

If catcalling and objectification in the media cause rape culture, yet women are cat called and objectified in the media more, and to a worse effect, then why is rape culture more pervasive when it is men that are being raped?

zulu127 · 2016-08-30T11:02:29+00:00

Boys who are sex trafficked are essentially disregarded. One study claims that 50% of sex trafficking victims in New York are boys.

rapist didn't get any jail time. She cited Brock Turner as an example.

Brock Turner did get jail time. Some people just didn't think it was enough.

existentialhack · 2016-08-30T12:08:37+00:00

Men are objectified in different ways. For their utility, for their labour, for their wallets, for their reproductive capacity, etc. eg. Men do all of society's most dangerous, least desirable jobs.

Objective studies bear out that women rape men at proximate rates, and men are even less likely to report it than women are (such is the social stigma).

There is no rape culture. Rape is considered a heinous crime to most people, second only to murder (some consider it worse). If you want a rape culture, visit a male prison (where the term was originally coined), where rape is commonplace, condoned and accepted, treated as trivial and a joke, and never prosecuted.

Men are twice as likely to be the victim of a violent attack as a woman, more so when it's "outside at night" (as most attacks on women occur in the home), so her fear is disproportionate to the actual threat.

How do you, at 15, know your mother was raped? Seems a little odd. And was her husband charged and convicted?

cmumford · 2016-08-30T13:26:34+00:00

So I have two kids just about your age. Your mother should not be having this debate with you. In my opinion this is a form of child abuse. She's still an authority figure in your life, and you just haven't had time to read and experience enough to formulate an adequate response.

It's likely that nothing will change her mind short of you being brought up on false charges.

FFXIV_Machinist · 2016-08-30T13:37:33+00:00

Her main points were the constant objectification of women in the media (which she said was worse with women)

Men are equally objectified. Sex sells to both sexes. its not some masterful scheme to keep the women down.

and how catcalling happens so often

No it doesnt
Its america, i can say "leme get at that sweet sweet ass" to a man or woman in public and have broken no laws. deal with it.

and the sex trafficking that's still going on and apparently nobody's outraged about it.

People are plenty outraged by it, however consider the following

when people say sex trafficking, they are also including the numbers for regular old prostitution.
- The actual distribution of Prostitution is about 60% female 35% Male 5%Trans
- The actual distribution of child sex slaves is 50/50 male/female.
the actual number of children in sex trafficking in america (literally being kept a sex slaves) is well below 20,000 despite what all of the organizations would have you believe (they quote numbers in the 600,000+ range by including adult age prostitutes in their figures).
Charitible organizations are basically running a scam where they create a false problem, or an exaggerated problem, and soak up all those good charity dollars.
Prostitution (of the adult age) is legal in most parts of the world, and it should be legal here- people have sexual needs and dont always have what it takes to get it for free.

She thought that objectification and catcalling basically build up to men thinking that women are just objects that they can do whatever the hell they want with them.

its true, some men do think like that, but on the flip side, so do women. theres an actual documented term for people like that. we call those people SOCIOPATHS.

This eventually builds up to rape culture.

Rape culture is a myth created by feminists to scare women into their movement. there is no massive rape perpetration going on in our country- in truth less than 1% of women will ever be raped. Rape DOES happen, but it does not happen anywhere NEAR as high as the feminists want you to believe.

Her point of sex trafficking is what convinced me the most. She said that since not many people are going crazy about it, it's basically rape culture.

Because its not as big as the media and charities want you to believe. at least not in america.

Apparently there are millions of women who have been raped and either didn't report it or the rapist didn't get any jail time. She cited Brock Turner as an example.

Her other points were how she's constantly afraid of when she goes outside at night of getting raped and the same with my sister.

Ask her why shes afraid.

when she says its because shell get raped ask her how many years shes been going out at night and how many years your sister has been going out at night. Combine that number, and ask them if they've ever been raped before in those past X years. after that Explain to them the ten things required to make a cult.

read this, it might make you understand how feminism is a cult a bit better:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4ajkfu/my_thoughts_on_the_cult_of_feminisim/

Feminists CONSTANTLY spread this message of fear and hate in order to draw people into their movement; "IF you go out at night youll be raped! come receive protection from feminism!". they fixate women on men being the villain, and create this invisible entity, "the partriarchy" that can never be defeated.

Thoughts? I don't really want to go into another argument without evidence. I'm 15 btw.

your mother is a victim of fear. from what you've said in your edit, NOTHING you have to say will change her mind until she is ready to stop allowing herself to be controlled by that fear.

Title	I had an argument with my mom, and she seemed pretty convincing. Thoughts?
Author	gamerlord66
Upvotes	3
Comments	30
Date	August 30, 2016 8:26 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/50a31p/i_had_an_argument_with_my_mom_and_she_seemed/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-had-an-argument-with-my-mom-and-she-seemed.942616 https://theredarchive.com/post/942616

Comments