The Hypocrisy of Sex-positive Feminism (my video) :)

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[–]DevilishRogue 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

Do you believe any of the pro-slut shaming things that red pillers believe?

Red Pillers don't believe in slut shaming. 'Slut' isn't a value-laden insult to Red Pillers, it's a simple descriptor like 'early' or 'green' used to describe women who have had sex with lots of partners without securing commitment from those partners. According to Red Pill sluts are desirable as sexual partners but not long-term relationships because of the statistical likelihood of divorce/betrayal that correlates to their behavior.

For example, how much of this post do you agree with?

I can't relate to that post. The guy has serious anger issues and isn't able to objectively assess what went wrong without resorting to using terms like 'slut' as an insult. He's what TRP would refer to as "in the anger phase". That said, most of the red flags listed are indeed red flags.

I'm mostly interested in if you believe that a woman with a slutty past isn't wife material but a man with a slutty past is great husband material.

Ah, that's a much easier question to answer. There is a compound correlation between number of partners and likelihood of marriage failure that is significantly higher for women than men:

http://socialpathology.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/sexual-partner-divorce-risk.html

http://www.statisticbrain.com/percent-of-female-infidelity-based-on-number-of-premarital-partners/

http://public.psych.iastate.edu/ccutrona/psych592a/articles/Sexual%20infidelity%20in%20women.pdf

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2733220/Women-don-t-sleep-wedding-happier-marriages-men-play-field-without-worry-study-finds.html

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-murder-and-the-meaning-life/201401/how-many-premarital-sex-partners-should-you-have

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/21/more-sexual-partners-unhappy-marriage_n_5698440.html

Incidentally, I'm what Red Pillers would refer to as 'a natural', so I'm not really a Red Piller even if I do understand why their theories are correct. Also, it's nice that it's actually possible to have this discussion on a forum that tends not to think highly of TRP without downvotes and bans!

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"Slutting it up" has only resulted in more happiness for me. Do you think I'm an exception? And what makes you think a girl can't have casual sex without getting emotionally attached? Well, red pillers don't directly say that a girl can't want to slut it up on purpose but they seem to believe we can't resist external influences - that post is a great example. That's my main issue with that post - the implication that we can't think for ourselves. I agree that modern subcultures push us towards slutdom but red pillers don't understand that if a girl is pushed in that way, she wants to be pushed! No girl thinks "I don't wanna be a slut but I guess I have to" and has casual sex without wanting to. Of course, that's not always true when it comes to just dressing "slutty" - peer pressure is sometimes involved there - but peer pressure doesn't make girls have casual sex just to fit in. What red pillers don't seem to understand is that we like casual sex, too! In their world, we all just want a relationship with an alpha male but we can't get that so we resort to being "used up" by them. Another problem I have with that post is the idea that it's so unnatural that modern girls are hyper-sexualized. But what's unnatural about people doing what they really wanna do? I agree with that post that girls in the West will most likely grow up to be whores but do you know why that is? Because they have the freedom to be whores, not because they're being brainwashed into it.

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Why did you also reply to me in a PM? Reddit's PM system is probably the only thing I hate more than YouTube's commenting system - they should just make it like a normal inbox. Yup, I want you to compliment my shoulders! As for what you wrote in your PM about sex-positivity, I agree. Yeah, feminists' version of sex-positivity isn't sex-positive enough - but I disagree that it's always from a woman's point-of-view. No, it's always from a feminist's point-of-view and limited to what feminists are into. You brought up polyamory and that's a great example - I have nothing against polyamory but feminists seem to be obsessed with it for some reason. Yeah, slut shaming is one of the few things feminists get right but they slut shame a lot, too! I agree about "creep shaming" being the equivalent for men. Thanks for saying that my "shoulders" are outstanding and quite nice! Yeah, they're quite the handful but is holding them in your hands the only thing you wanna do? ;)

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Would you say that criticizing a male who has his pants sagging is "slut shaming"? Same principle.

Or is it just thinking it's highly inappropriate for your underwear to be on display for others to see? Underwear is meant to be under our clothing. It's not something for display in public, let alone in middle/high school.

You should take some efforts to not leave it on display. If you are wearing a skirt, close your legs. I'd tell a guy wearing a kilt to close his legs too, and I'm a gay man so I'd more more inclined to want to see that. Do what you want in your house, but in public have some semblance of decorum. Same thing with bending over, if your ass falls out, get bigger pants, wear a bigger shirt. And certainly don't go commando, ffs.

That's not even getting into if you're going to play a victim when people do inevitably look.

And slut shaming is a stupid concept to me. I don't know how much you agree with feminists on with it, but I'll give a quick run down on what I believe.

There's nothing wrong with being a slut. Slut it up to your hearts content. Spread those legs and invite over the entire crowd at a sporting event to enter you. More power to you.

But don't be surprised if none of those people respect you, and don't be surprised that no one else respects you either. No one has to respect you just because they have sex with you. And no one has to respect your sexual decisions.

Having sex isn't always about respect, especially when it's casual hookups. Those are usually about... sex, and nothing else. If you want sex that's about respect, you'll not likely to find that being a slut.

Men not wanting to date or marry a "slut" isn't "slut shaming". This is a common argument feminists make. Having sex and having a relationship are two vastly different things, it's perfectly normal to have different requirements and expectations for them. Especially in regards to marriage. You may have no problem sleeping with a slut, who you know has been with half the guys in town, but that doesn't mean you want to marry her or even date her. And you can't demand he do so.

Choices have consequences.

Also, you can't shame the unashamed. So the only sluts actually able to be shamed for what they do... are people who aren't actually happy with their decisions. And need validation from others to feel good about their regrets.

f they don't like being a slut, stop being one. If you're fine with it, you won't care that people call you it already. If you're not even a slut, but called one... that's just an insult, pretend they called you a bitch; same difference.

And yes, it is slutty to sleep with tons of people. Whether you're male or female in my mind. Though I do understand the biological differences between men and women, and how people can view it differently based on that. Women are more passive in seeking sex, men are more active in seeking sex. Thus, men "achieve" sex. Women "agree" to it.

Can't imagine that different way of viewing things will change, unless women do. Women not facing rejection, being the sole gatekeepers of sex... also has consequences. You can't have it all. For men, with "sexual conquest" comes "sexual failure". Men face rejection, so when they actually get sex it's an achievement. Women do not face that rejection, thus when they get sex it's not an achievement. It is different, and again it won't change unless women change. And I don't think women collectively will. Because it's not fun to face rejection.

And lastly, it's not "slut shaming" to just call someone a "slut". Usually when men are calling a woman a slut, it's just a general insult. Since women get offended by it so easily it's a pretty easy thing to do if you're trying to get under a woman's skin. So when feminists say, "A guy approaches a girl, and she denies him and then calls her a slut!" as an example of "slut shaming"... it's just an insult. He could call her a cunt and it would be the same thing to him. It's just an insult because he's just been rejected. Obviously people shouldn't insult people who reject them, unless the rejector is an asshole about it then I say... go for it. Whether you're a man or woman.

A man calling a cheating girlfriend a "slut"... I'd say this is the only real "slut shaming" a man does. And it's perfectly justified. Cheating is horrible, I don't care who does it. Fuck cheaters. If you're unhappy, leave. If you want to fuck other people , don't be in a monogamous relationship. Cheating is selfish and awful. And I would say cheating, male or female, is a slutty behavior.

Women actively slut shame each other more than men do it to women. And it's not justified, it's basically a way to control other women's sexuality so they do not lose in the marketplace for sex.

Too many women use sex as a tool to control men's behavior. Withhold it from men when they aren't happy as punishment, even going as far as to not even let him sleep in his own bed. Give it as a reward... and when other women are giving out sex easily and freely [or even with prostitution] it undermines their sexual power. A man could just leave them and get sex elsewhere.

Prostitution is a fair exchange. You pay, get sex. While dating is essentially prostitution, but put into a randomizer. Hell, even marriage has turned into prostitution that you pay upon termination of the contract. With women getting alimony because they gave a man sex for a time. And yes sometimes, that's literally all they did for the money. [John Cleese' last divorce is a prime example - she pretty much cleared him out and she had absolutely nothing to do with any of his success, she's now worth more than he is and all because, for a time, she gave him sex].

Women can't have everything in the sexual game. They want what men have, in that men are seen as earning something when they get sex. But women do not want to give up the ability to reject men who approach them, they don't want to give up being the gate keepers of sex in order to get that benefit that men have.

And ultimately, is it really that big of a benefit? I don't think it is for the work men have to do in order to even get it. Most men are never going to be benefited from it, because they'll face more rejection than anything else.

tl;dr - It's not slut shaming to criticize someone's underwear being on display, or expect them to not put in on display. And slut shaming as a concept is overblown, and a non-issue largely. And the only actual arguable issue with it is women who do it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the long comment - I mean it! I prefer reading and replying to long comments. No, I wouldn't say that criticizing a male who has his pants sagging is slut shaming because he'd be shamed but not for being a slut. Yeah, I get what you mean about how that's more "inappropriate shaming" than slut shaming. Although, just because it's inappropriate to go commando in a skirt and spread your legs open doesn't mean I haven't done it lol. But of course I'm not gonna play a victim when people look - I've only done it just so guys would look. Well, I disagree that slut shaming is a stupid concept. People not respecting me because I've had casual hookups is a perfect example of slut shaming! By not respecting me, I mean respecting me less than they respect the average person. I agree that a man not wanting to date or marry a slut doesn't necessarily mean he's a slut shamer but it lets me know he might be one. Well, I consider myself to be a proud slut and I'm not ashamed of my sex life at all but that doesn't mean I'm not against slut shaming. It's simply about being against a sexist double standard - just like I'm against the sexist double standard that results in men being creep shamed. Of course it's slutty to sleep with tons of people! Since you felt the need to say that, have you been arguing with feminists who deny that? Calling a cheating gf a slut isn't technically slut shaming but yeah, cheating is definitely wrong. Well, is cheating a slutty behaviour when it involves cheating with only 1 person? It's wrong but not slutty. I agree that women slut shame each other more than men do but you seem to be denying that a lot of men do it, too. BTW, I enjoyed our conversation about slut shaming but let's get back to the topic about dress codes! Do you think of the clothes in this pic as being inappropriate?

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Are you sure it's not hard to pay attention to both adequately?

Well... I mean it's basically a mandatory requirement for having adequate social interaction with an attractive female so yea, it shouldn't be hard for a normally functioning person. You have to be pretty hard up for tit exposure if you can't concentrate on both well enough. If a guy couldn't do that then I'd probably have the same reaction as I would have to a woman who, for example, couldn't hold a conversation with George Clooney because she was too busy creaming her panties over meeting George Clooney, which is to say I would feel a bit awkward and embarrassed for them and also thing they were probably a bit autistic or something.

What are your thoughts on my argument that it makes perfect sense for guys to ignore my argument if my boobs are on display?

I think it's less a case of it making sense and more just not being all that surprising. The usual "Ima stick mah dick 'tween yo titties!" comments you are likely to see on youtube aren't exactly useful or productive or what you would expect from a rational adult, but if getting them on youtube surprises you then you clearly aren't all that familiar with the internet...

let's just say I have the exact opposite opinion on objectification that feminists do.

We'll I don't even believe 99% of claims of "objectification" are even really objectification so you won't have to work too hard to convince me feminists are full of shit on that account :p

[–]Black_caped_man -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

While I understood the intent it took a while for me to be really sure that I actually understood it correctly. I think the message can be pretty lost on most people especially since you are new and people don't really know how you make your points. Irony and sarcasm and satire takes a while to master, but definitely keep it up.

There is also the risk of being taken for someone who just wants to show off which has a tendency to make people not pay attention to what you are trying to say.

I guess you are aware of this already but I thought it was worth mentioning as an attempt at constructive criticism. I will always encourage especially women to speak out against the hypocrisy in feminism and similar. The reason for why especially women is because it actually carries a greater impact than if men do it, though I do encourage men to do the same. So definitely keep going if you have more ideas to bring forward.

PS. Obligatory nice breasts comment, but you probably knew that too ;P

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Title	The Hypocrisy of Sex-positive Feminism (my video) :)
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	50
Comments	84
Date	November 16, 2015 6:29 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3szqnw/the_hypocrisy_of_sexpositive_feminism_my_video/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-hypocrisy-of-sex-positive-feminism-my-video.967160 https://theredarchive.com/post/967160

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