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Radical Feminist Susan Brownmiller: "I find the position 'Don't blame us, we're survivors' to be appalling."

ManUpManDown

September 17, 2015
25 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/09/what-todays-rape-activists-dont-get.html
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Title Radical Feminist Susan Brownmiller: "I find the position 'Don't blame us, we're survivors' to be appalling."
Author

ManUpManDown

Upvotes 25
Comments 30
Date September 17, 2015 4:42 PM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3lbjuc/radical_feminist_susan_brownmiller_i_find_the/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/radical-feminist-susan-brownmiller-i-find-the.971173
https://theredarchive.com/post/971173
Red Pill terms in post
feminist
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Comments

[–]blueoak9 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Extend your focus to the larger percentage of women and girls who are in danger of being raped. They are more important than the college kids."

They are going to hate her for that one. Sure enough down in the comments they bash her. They find other things to criticize, but what it comes down to is they think she is outdated. I thought they were supposed to be against "ageism."

[–]pnw_diver 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Also, the rape kits that have not been processed are a huge problem, and they are not dealing with that.

Its just amazing, that you never hear the words "rape kit" coming from the mouths of the "rape culture" types. You would think that, in the age of DNA testing, college feminists would run to the rape kit as proof of sex at least.

But that proof implies accountability to the accuser, so I guess its to be avoided.

[–]skepticalbipartisan 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

What I have never understood is how victim prevention is seen as victim blaming.

Telling someone not to get blackout drunk and walk down a dark alley isn't the same as saying its your fault for getting raped.

If you told me that I was going to a party with a bunch of known rapists and there was a high chance I'd be raped; my response wouldn't be "fuck you, tell them not to rape".

[–]isaackleiner 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I liken it to wearing a seatbelt. It's not your fault if a drunk driver hits you, but wearing a seatbelt may keep you from being ejected through the windshield. It's a small, reasonable step that a potential victim can take proactively to mitigate risk.

[–]skepticalbipartisan 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's brilliant. I will be using that analogy the next time someone accuses me of victim blaming.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminazism as decreed that we need to boil the ocean to keep the random shark from biting. Instead of telling people to take precautions against sharks. They have turned women into helpless toddlers.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]skepticalbipartisan 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm inclined to agree with your dislike of the author's choice of words. I'm not advocating for victim shaming. What I'm saying is some measure of selfresponsibilty is required in life. Educating people to be safe is good advice to prevent most potentially dangerous situations.

This isn't even a gendered issue. Raising awareness of potentially violent situations (of all kinds) is important. It's the same kind of advice you'd use to avoid being assaulted/harassed. This idea of "teach men not to rape" is not only absurd but it's an insult to the very being of man.

They are implying that all men are rapists until we are taught otherwise. Rape is already seen as the most vile thing you can do to a person. There is no amount of disapproval society can place upon the act that will solve the problem. Rape is about power. Taking power over another person.

That criminal is given power whether you approve or not. What makes you think that someone who is willing to violate another human being is going to care that you told them it's bad? They know it's bad. They don't care.

I'm not saying rape should be condoned or accepted. We cannot control what other people think, we can only educate. It needs to be defined, prevented and condemned. You (hopefully) wouldn't shame someone who has been mugged but we're okay with tips on preventing that no?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When she is blackout drunk and wakes up and realizes she had sex, how does she even know it is rape? Now with the kangaroo feminist courts, it's whatever she says it was.

[–]ee4m[🍰] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (21 children) | Copy Link

I'm totally fine with with movement against victim blaming, its totally valid .

If Im assaulted tonight the last thing I'm going to want to hear are idiots trying to tell me I'm stupid .

Meanwhile there are great arguments to be making against them, instead of arguing to blame people - just because they argue against it .

She is right about ignoring working class women, feminist promote what they call "rape culture" by making rape about mainly white, privileged college women instead of the majority of rape victims .

[–]derpylord143 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

i dont advocate victim blaming i adovcate victim provention. if you provide oportunity, then would be rapists will take them, its not to say the victim isnt a victim or is at fault, but they could potentially have prevented it. take a situation where a woman goes out with a couple of friends, all female, all get pissed out of their faces, have no way to get home (as uk law means any establishment has to prevent drunk people driving in the uk by taking their car keys), so have to walk, each live in different directions, then they are leaving themselves open to an attack, the attacker is still a sick twisted bastard who needs punishment, but had they all stayed at one persons house, or had a dedicated driver, or got a taxi, or any number of things, then the rape wouldnt have occured. its not saying they are at fault, but prevention is as important as any other method of lowering a crime rate and should be implemented, i dont like upsetting rape victims (i have my reasons) but you cant sit there and say if someone could take reasonable steps to prevent themselves being a victim, but doesnt has no part to play in the situation. if you can lower the risk and take reasonable steps to prevent something, then you should, its not to say they have some fault in the attack itself, but taking reasonable precautions such as staying as a group, and preventing people going home with people they dont know, is a highly important thing in preventing rape and these responcibilities lie with the victim and their friends.

[–]ee4m[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (19 children) | Copy Link

You dont advocate victim blaming, but you still want to blame women that were raped for not lowering their risk, so in reality you do advocate it , but aren't aware of it .

[–]wazzup987 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Listen this isn't moral blame this like leaving you house unlocked and then coming home and wondering where all your shit went. saying dont get black out drunk or massively shit faced is not victim blaming. if a guy gets massively shit face and rape i would tell him the same thing. no what happened to you isn't right but FFS dont get lose you senses and dont rely on other people to keep you safe. safety is a responsibility not an expectations. Also being aware of the signals you are send is and other thing to be aware of. Also speak up, and cant respect you consent (and by proxy a 'no') if you dont actually say no i dont want this.

[–]ee4m[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

If you aren't interested in blaming people, why are you saying the things you are - erecting these straw people who deliberately decide to leave their windows open and then are unable to understand that if they forgot to lock up, and when that's exploited by a thief - they cannot make the connection between the two events?

The anti victim blaming movement was never about people that cannot understand risk in the first place.

Its a lot to do with a people blaming themselves , to an extreme degree and trying to stop other peope doing it to .

Going by the things you are saying, you've missed the point of the movement .

[–]derpylord143 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

sighs you are saying I'm saying I victims fault for not preventing... No, I'm saying had the victim taken all reasonable precautions then it wouldn't have occurred or wouldn't have been as likely to occur and to lower the amount of victims they should have people take these precautions... That's not victim blaming that's victim prevention, if they don't take precautions then their risk of attack rises and that risk increase can be attributed to them, however the victim is at no fault for the actual attack and only the increased risk, but that is by no means justification for the crime, or any form of mitigating factor, its just logic if you dont take reasonable steps to lower the chance of being a victim then you are responsible for the increased risk and should act accordingly, society isn't perfect and there is a chance being attacked will occur, if you dont put actions in place to prevent it that's your choice, but you can't grumble about the increased risk it leaves you at if you then subsequently become a victim (not the crime but the risk)

[–]ee4m[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

you are saying I'm saying I victims fault for not preventing...

Right, you say it again here .

No, I'm saying had the victim taken all reasonable precautions then it wouldn't have occurred

If you are deliberately hit by a drunk driver tonight, there are ways you could have prevented it, but whats the point in telling you that?

Only an asshole would do that .

Why are you even saying all this stuff?

[–]derpylord143 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

No that's taken out of context, my point is to not say its there fault, its to say they are responsible for the increased risk they put themselves at for not taking reasonable steps to prevent it, its more apt to say, if I go skydiving and shoot fails, then I'm not responsible for the failed shoot, they are because they are the experts (the company - it was their responsibility to ensure all the gear was working, however was I responsible for putting myself in the situation where my reliance on that shoot was necessary - jumping out of a perfectly fine plane -, yes, just like if I dont look both ways down a road before I cross if I'm hit by a drunk,driver then I was foolish for not checking both ways, or if I go out drinking and have nothing in places to ensure safe travel home (sticking with friends or having family ready to pick me up) then the risk I take by walking home by myself is one I put on myself, that doesn't remove the fact the rapist is a sick twisted fucker who needs locking up for life or ultimately they shouldn't have raped, but to imply not taking reasonable steps to prevent something is stupid if you know it can occur and there are reasonable steps to prevent it. For a start I made certain to point out its a matter of likelyhood, i can still fall to my death without jumping out of a plane, I can still be hit by a drunk driver etc. Even if you take all steps to prevent it, but by not taking unnecessary risks the you are less likely to be a victim

[–]ee4m[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah you want to blame for anything they did to increase their risk.

Like if you were deliberately run over at night while getting milk, and someone said "that wouldnt have happened if you decreased your risk by getting milk during the day, you are responsible for that".

While true and obvious, its a stupid and unhelpful thing to say to you, to blame you like that .

Why are you even saying all this stuff?

Is as if you think there are people that don't understand that if you increase you risk you increase your risk and its important to explain it to them.

[–]derpylord143 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

no its the fact that whenever anyone brings this fact up, its is called victim blaming, no, saying that people take responcibility for their safety and ensuring they have ways of getting home after etc. that are safe is important but so many people arguing its victim blaming, when it isnt, its victim prevention, thats the whole point. Yes if you go out at night when cars cant see you, then you are more likely to be hit, thats an obvious risk, but that risk is slim enough to avoid, in this so called "rape culture of ours" that feminism demands that it exists, the surely the risk is neough to demand plans to prevent it. its not unhelpful when addressing rape, as there is this entire idea that "they shouldnt have to take precautions thats wrong, society is patriachal and it only happens cause guys think they own female bodies" well, yes and no, they shouldnt have to, but they do need to, else it increases their risk and until feminists see that we arent victim blaming, but saying take responcibility for increasing or decreasing your own risk then it needs pointing out (though technically most rapes arent date rape, and is also feminist propoganda, which needs addressing -.-) my entire argument is that people dont say its their fault, its that they are saying women need ot be careful else they may fall victim, and that then gets twisted into "victim blaming" no, its not, its take care of yourself, and ensure that there is as little chance for it to occur as possible

[–]wazzup987 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

what part about dont get blotto drunk is victim blaming? how am i impuning there victim hood other than say be more mindful when you drink. if a mans get blotto drunk and get rolled in some dark alley you most certain say to him dont get that fucking drunk again. the is nothing victim blaming saying you safety is not and expectation but your responsibility.

[–]ee4m[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

Why are you even bothered about telling other people not to get drunk?

If you dont do that - hyperbolic feminists will not start shouting "victim blamer" because they think framing it in terms of womens drinking leads to people thinking that the main issue is women's drinking and then blaming women's drinking on them getting raped .

Its nothing ... a non issue for us , yet we build near our entire counter argument to rape culture around it .

[–]wazzup987 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I am holding women to the same standards as men which means tell them to be careful how much they drink and who they drink with.

framing in terms of womens drinking leads to people thinking that the main issue is women's drinking and blaming womens drinking on them getting raped .

no its not and it is and issues for us. most rape accusation in college happen because the consent was in the grey area with BOTH people drinking. and because of feminism a lot young women think they can drink as much as a man. this simply isn't the case. add in college hookup culture. you have a recipe were people fucking drunk, consent is blurry. if a man get drunk at college there is no campaign to see if his consent is violated? no there because we rightly assume he has the agency to control how much he drinks and we correctly assume the unless he is staggeringly drunk he has agency. so if some thing bad happen to him while he is not in the moral wrong he still should have known better from the perspective personal responsibility. i am merely hold women to the same standard as i hold men to. which s what the mrm is all about.

[–]ee4m[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I am holding women to the same standards as men which means tell them to be careful how much they drink and who they drink with

Then show me you posting history of being concerned about men drinking ... men have more addiction problems, and take more risks, and are assaulted more often ... so show your proof .

Your second paragraph is another topic .

[–]wazzup987 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

its all through my post history. i am not going to dig through thousands of posts i have made to reddit. but i constantly call out males idiocy as well.

[–]thrway_1000 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[Archive of Article Here.]

 


Please think of archiving links to sites that are known to have biased and/or negative representations of men, masculinity, and men's rights -- i.e. The Guardian, Slate, The Telegraph, Cracked, BuzzFeed, Vox, Vice, Break, Bustle, Medium, Mic, Huffington Post, and so on. Or to articles and/or sources that may be controversial, which may be altered and/or removed because of our current culture of censorship. https://archive.is/

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]wazzup987 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is a little late, after you are both undressed, to say "I don’t want this."

i mean i would be confused as fuck if that happened.

[–]chocoboat 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Please, let's not make this feminist the one we identify with.

You can agree with a person's statements on one topic without necessarily agreeing with every other view that they have.

[–]ThePigmanAgain 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Does she say anything about the idea that only 2% of rape reports are false? It's her figure, you know.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Don't hog all the victimhood."

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