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Does that means a woman-only gym can get fined if it refuses a man's business?

BizouBisou

September 9, 2015
57 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/pittsburgh-area-barbershop-fined-750-refusing-cut-/nnZwX/
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Post Information
Title Does that means a woman-only gym can get fined if it refuses a man's business?
Author

BizouBisou

Upvotes 57
Comments 39
Date September 9, 2015 9:55 AM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3k7ygf/does_that_means_a_womanonly_gym_can_get_fined_if/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/does-that-means-a-woman-only-gym-can-get-fined-if.971735
https://theredarchive.com/post/971735
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Comments

[–]Vandredd 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Legally, yes. Practically, no.

[–]DavidByron2 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/bethlehem/index.ssf/2011/08/pennsylvania_bars_can_offer_la.html

Legally offering a ladies night in Pennsylvania bars is a tricky game of clever wordplay and marketing.

The result for losing that game is a citation from the Pennsylvania Bureau of Liquor Control Enforcement with a fine that ranges from $50 to $1,000 and, in major cases, up to $5,000.

[–]Vandredd 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Legally yes covers that. Practically no because most wouldn't be willing to bring the issue.

[–]intensely_human 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Make no mistake about this small example gentlemen. This is a pretty minor example in the grand scheme of things, and some of us will say "he should have cut her hair" and others will say "she should have just butted out".

But the real key issue here is whether it's okay to create and enforce a single-gender space. Or perhaps, might it even be necessary for the proper happiness of people, to have places in their society where they can go and be guaranteed that only their own sex will be there?

I personally am in favor of allowing the creation of gender-restricted spaces. If it starts getting to the point where everything is single-gendered and the sexes are living out separated lives then it gets to be a problem, but just having like 0.001% of a city being dedicated to being a woman-only or man-only space, so that any women or men who are so inclined can spend an hour or two without their opposite sex around, seems perfectly fine for me.

It even seems to me like it might be necessary for people's happiness.

[–]baskandpurr[🍰] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I think they should have cut her hair (assuming she wants the sort of haircut they are able to do). I sympathise with what they are doing but gender segregation should be a choice. A man should be able to get his hair done in a predominantly female place if he wants.

I think this is about being discouraged vs. being prevented. Most men don't get their hair done in a hairdresser by choice. Its not a particularly friendly environment and they probably don't want the expense or style of cut. Same with a women in a barber's place. But that doesn't mean that either gender shouldn't be allowed to choose whichever they want.

To use a somewhat polarised example, if a lesbian or a trans person wanted to get their hair cut in that place their genetalia shouldn't prevent it.

[–]corndog161 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Isn't this what a wave looks like on a girl? If so I know that the men's barbershop I go to could not manage that. Unless she wanted a men's wave, which is possible.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Is that second image actually what that haircut looks like? Why would ANYONE want that, male or female?

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]baskandpurr[🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Would you allow trans people into your male only barber shop?

[–]BizouBisou[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree with you but I want to stress this part of your argument:

(assuming she wants the sort of haircut they are able to do)

[–]RedditorJemi 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The issue here is that a woman could come in, say she wants a man's cut, and then sue him for giving her a bad haircut (and for a lot more than $750 too). If he wanted to do this, he'd have to print out a bunch of waivers for women to sign. I think he should go ahead and do it though. He shouldn't eat a bunch of fines over this.

[–]Mitschu 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In what world can you sue for a subjectively bad haircut?

I'm looking it up online (because apparently I've got a goldmine sitting on my head) and the few times I can find where this kind of lawsuit actually worked was when chemicals were involved that caused permanent damage and it could be proven that the hairdresser was willfully negligent.

[–]scanspeak 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Next time cut her hair but be sure to do a bad job. Fucking government.

[–]DavidByron2 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Pennsylvania also bans ladies nights and women only gyms. They are definitely enforcing the law equally.

[–]Arby01 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a strong argument that the issue isn't an equality issue - I like the analogy to women only gyms - if there aren't any women-only spaces then it seems reasonable that there aren't any men-only spaces (and vice-versa).

[–]AbnormalDream 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yay Pittsburgh is in the news... oh :(

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]chocoboat 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I was not aware that's the legal reason that gyms are allowed to discriminate while other places can't. Interesting.

[–]geniice 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The reason will vary with jurisdiction and not all gyms can.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is only the UK, but yes this is the reason. It is about the only area where one gender can be excluded other than private clubs.

[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not actually true. "Curves" in Pennsylvania cannot legal exclude men and doesn't try.

As the manager of a nearby Curves gym — a female-centric business — points out: men can be customers if they want to be around mostly women, but it’s up to them.

[–]Deefry 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

So if you had to sign up as a member of this gentlemen's barbers they wouldn't have been fined?

[–]intensely_human 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Hm, I wonder if a barber shop could modify itself to run on a membership model. Of course then you've got a club that involves haircuts and then you're off into cult or maybe commie territory.

It's a pickle.

[–]RedditorJemi 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course then you've got a club that involves haircuts and then you're off into cult or maybe commie territory.

No.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Partly correct. The Private Club bit is correct but even a council run gym in the UK that is not a club can exclude men. Under the discrimination act where people may be embarrassed such as swimming pool, gym, yoga class etc then one gender can legally be excluded.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is a bit of a stretch to say that men are embarrassed about being shaved in front of women but this would be certainly one argument that could be used. I think men could be excluded from seeing women's legs being waxed so I guess the barber would be allowed to exclude women legally.

[–]intensely_human 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What I really would like to inject into the discussion here is the fact that I simply feel safer when I'm in the presence of only men.

No, it's not about a physical threat, but there is a level of relaxation that I can't achieve if I'm in mixed company. I feel like when I'm in a room full of men then the social rules about what I need to do to maintain valued status is pretty simple: don't aggress on anyone. But when women are in the room too all of a sudden I need to be scrambling toward the top of some kind of social pile of bullshit constantly in order to maintain the respect of those around me.

I really wish this phenomenon were more studied. I think that men really do have a legitimate need to be away from women for a portion of their day or week in order to be healthy. It's hard to articulate why, but I would say many other men probably instinctually and immediately understand and identify with what I'm saying.

[–]Grompher 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm thinking Westpoint. Is it private?

[–]DavidByron2 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You're wrong. If membership is open to the public generally the laws apply. You'd need to have a membership that was not open to the public.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]BizouBisou[S] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

He may simply not trust himself to do a good female cut. There was this dry cleaner in my street who also do adjustment to the lenght of pants. Very simple stuff. Mesure the pants, cut it and sew it. Someday I brang her a curtain and asked her to adjust its lenght. "No can't do". I tought it would be the same thing to her: mesure the curtain, cut it and sew it. Maybe she was a poor sewer for not being versatile but to her this was totally different. Maybe to this barber cuting the hair of a woman was something he was unable to do.

[–]EightyTimes 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Comparing a gym to a barber shop is a weak analogy. To PROPERLY reverse the situation:

Under the same jurisdiction, Yes. A woman's only salon CAN and WILL get fined if it refuses a man's business.

[–]192873982 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit, the gym comparison was great.

Anything sporty a woman can do can be done by a guy, unless it needs a vagina.

The barber on the other hand might not be familiar with womens haircuts at all, because they are different than mens haircuts.

Also mens hair products are usually different from the ones for women.

Which means that the womens gym can't have any reason for a men to not be able to participate, and the mens barber does have a few reasons against cutting womens hair.

[–]EightyTimes 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit, the gym comparison was great.

No, it's wasn't great.

It's understandable for MEN to feel uncomfortable working out in front of women... and also understandable for WOMEN to feel uncomfortable working out in front of men.

It's the reason we have different bathrooms and locker rooms. In social situations where one gender is in various states of undress, the thresholds for entry by the other gender are higher.

Considerations for a gym are simply different than conditions for a barber shop. Paperwork, membership, and insurance need to be signed in a gym that restricts gender... but not in a barbershop.

It's a weak analogy and doesn't hold up in any real way, unless you're willingly ignoring information.

The barber on the other hand might not be familiar with womens haircuts at all,

These are all false premises. In this actual story that actually happened. The woman involved wanted a MEN'S haircut and was denied.

Which means that the womens gym can't have any reason for a men to not be able to participate, and the mens barber does have a few reasons against cutting womens hair.

So no.

They're not in any way the same, which is why they're regulated differently and women's gyms do NOT have to pay such fines.

There are MANY instances in which men are unfairly denied access, and there are MANY instances in which women have unfairly waged war against male spaces.

This is not one of them.

[–]192873982 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's understandable for MEN to feel uncomfortable working out in front of women... and also understandable for WOMEN to feel uncomfortable working out in front of men.

Then why wouldn't it be possible for men to be uncomfortable getting a haircut in front of women? A lot of people have intimate conversations with their barbers, also you might look silly inbetween the hair cut. If you are self conscious, both situations can be uncomfortable for you, the hair cut and the workout. There is just no difference in this regard.

It's the reason we have different bathrooms and locker rooms. In social situations where one gender is in various states of undress, the thresholds for entry by the other gender are higher.

I disagree, otherse pools would have separation by gender, but they don't do that anymore. It's more about selfconscious people who think they are looking silly, but that's also a problem during a hair cut.

Considerations for a gym are simply different than conditions for a barber shop. Paperwork, membership, and insurance need to be signed in a gym that restricts gender... but not in a barbershop.

I agree with the membership, that is one big difference, but then the membership should probably be open to all people.

It's a weak analogy and doesn't hold up in any real way, unless you're willingly ignoring information.

I does hold up quite well. Not perfectly, but that was to be expected. Still a good analogy.

These are all false premises. In this actual story that actually happened. The woman involved wanted a MEN'S haircut and was denied.

Okay, she wanted a mans haircut, I agree that my premise was wrong in this point, but what if the barber is just socially awkward in the presence of women and that's why knew he would probably ruin the haircut? There are still plenty of reasons for denying a haircut, when he's explicitly a men-only barber.

So no.

So yes.

They're not in any way the same, which is why they're regulated differently and women's gyms do NOT have to pay such fines. There are MANY instances in which men are unfairly denied access, and there are MANY instances in which women have unfairly waged war against male spaces. This is not one of them.

I agree, no man was treated bad in this article, but no woman as well. There are a lot of woman-only or men-only barbers as far as I know, and I don't really mind, since haircuts for men and women are very different. I think it's stupid for him to not serve this woman, since he would have gained easy profit, but you can't deny that he may have had plausible reasons you don't know.

I just watched the video again, and it really is his buisness model to create a men-space, a bro-atmosphere or whatever you want to call it. But it's not far from a ladies-night that exists in lots of cinemas, bars or night clubs. The difference is that ladies-nights are not every evening, but they certainly wouldn't serve man on ladies-night.

I think the fine he got is wrong. Maybe you disagree, and I am okay with that.

[–]EightyTimes 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

More than the points themselves, I dislike people fighting for 'my' causes using flawed arguments.

It makes it easy for the 'opposing team' to poke holes.

Then why wouldn't it be possible for men to be uncomfortable getting a haircut in front of women?

If you're being hypothetical, sure. Lets poll 1000 people and see how this logic breaks down in reality.

There are so multitudes of clear & present sub-arguments that can be made for nudity-based embarrassment that can't be made for barber-based embarrassment.

I does hold up quite well. Not perfectly, but that was to be expected. Still a good analogy.

and A PERFECT analogy would be a 'woman's only salon refusing to take a man.'

Because the same points can't be made with this PERFECT gender/swap analogy, OP must search for a less-than perfect analogy because it makes his predisposed point better.

It's weak. I expect better from MRAs.

what if the barber is just socially awkward in the...

And what if the woman was an extraterrestrial ambassador and this was her one contact point with the people of earth. 'What ifs' are irrelevant and just add white-noise to the underlying issues.

it really is his buisness model to create a men-space, a bro-atmosphere or whatever you want to call it.

I commented on this in another thread on this topic... but he has a weak business model if his unique value proposition can't withstand a single female entering the space.

There are many establishments which rely on creating 'professional mancaves.' If they're done properly, the environment stands-up to having a single woman enter.

I think the fine he got is wrong. Maybe you disagree, and I am okay with that.

I too dislike that he got the fine... and I dislike the underlying laws. I'm a business owner and hold a core belief that independent enterprises like his should be able to do whatever the hell they want... and if you don't like it.. tough luck, go somewhere else.

But we belong to a country that contains a system of checks and balances, and laws that often contrast personal belief.

In this particular situation, there is no slight or social hypocrisy. It's a bad place to direct our attention, and is just bitching to hear ourselves bitch.

[–]192873982 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, then we might stop this discussion.

I think he should not have been fined.

I do understand her problems too, but taking it that far is a bit unreasonable, I think.

Female only hair salons do exist in huge amount, as far as I know, I was not sure wether a man has ever tried to get his hair cut in such a place, and what resulted of it. I guess that was never a problem, because female hair salons are more expensive?

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