Equality ≠ justice, or does it?

ahatabat · 2015-07-05T15:51:39+00:00

There's a difference between equality of opportunity and equality of result.

Also, feminists don't want equality. They treat gender issues like a buffet, where they can pick up the stuff the want and not the stuff they don't. Higher pay? I'll take that. Dying in a house fire? No, that's icky, I don't want that, women and children first.

Ted8367 · 2015-07-05T13:29:21+00:00

Anatole France (1844-1924) has already covered this:

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and steal bread.

Frostatine · 2015-07-05T15:44:25+00:00

Justice is a process. Equality is a state of being. If you apply justice to an inequal system you will have results based on arbitrary factors. For example if a man commits a crime and receives a 10 year prison sentence while a woman receives 5 years for the same crime, then you have justice applied unequally and the issue is equality.

Alternatively if there was a law that specifically stated that women can only be victims of rape and men can only be perpetrators of rape then the issue is with the process of justice.

unklestinky · 2015-07-05T13:33:19+00:00

I get the feeling that a lot of feminists and other equality activists are using the principle of equality to get an upper edge, almost making themselves seem superior to men about this big cultural shift,

So you're saying that feminists aren't fighting for equality, rather they are fighting for supperiority.

yet you can't side with equality, because that inevitable means that feminists are proven right,

Given your earlier statement then siding with "equality" does not prove feminists right.

CountVonVague · 2015-07-05T22:14:04+00:00

Justice seems to be the word for "when you've had your day in court" while Equality seems to be applied to "every day you're not in court". As said somewhere else justice is the process of law and precise analysis while equality is a state of flux-equilibrium in our day-to-day lives.

Justice is a goal Men will reach when the decades one-sided media slander and academic witch-hunts are revealed for the unbridled bigotry and utter hypocrisy they are.

Equality is a state Men will reach after Justice has been served and society is forced to comprehend how unabashedly ignorant it's anti-male views were for so decades and that a modicum of trust and just a bit of critical analysis are in order for the future.

xNOM · 2015-07-05T23:54:08+00:00

Equality Between Men And Women Is Not Achievable

P13579 · 2015-07-06T05:10:54+00:00

Equity just means fair and just. The circumstance itself must be considered in order to determine the outcome. Not just conforming to some arbitrary set of rules.

Equality means nothing. It's a contextual word and must be a reference to the context it is referring to. “All stand equal before the law” has contextual relevance. That the law must be applied without prejudice or favor. “Sexual equality” and “social equality” mean whatever someone wants them to mean.

Equality has become a loaded word that is used as a political/negotiating lever to restrict consideration to only what is being presented, in the way it is being presented. When the feminists campaigned for women to gain equal access to male dominated industries; that may have been equality in that context. It took several years for men to gain access to female dominated industries, and I don't believe it is equal with women to this day. In the context of sexual equality the campaign gained inequality. Gender roles were expected of both genders, not only women. It was equal, and made unequal. The initiative was cultural reform by a minority faction, imposing their preferred culture by eroding the existing culture. It had nothing to do with 'equality'.

The 'liberation of women' was in reference to women not being valued for their traditional role of nurturer, but just inalienably valued as a women. That women have the right to make any choice they like, and any expectation of women is oppressing them. The original movement was liberation from the traditional culture. The liberation from the evil men came later. Under the feminist movement the traditional male role of provision has not only been maintained but increased. A man is held obligated to a women even after she has abandon her's (fails in equity), and is held obligated to a child that is not his (fails in equity). This is an assertion of inequality as defined by feminists. Under gender neutral roles whoever the child is currently being cared for by is both nurturer and provider of the child. The enforced arrangement is a combination of female liberation under feminism and male obligation under traditionalism. Feminist still claim this a one of their greatest successes.

The following quote is from a topic on this sub about a week ago titled “Why this sub needs to stop bashing feminism” (sorry, I don't know how to do internal links properly).

In fact, this sub should, at least IN PRINCIPLE, support feminism. Why? Because feminism is 'the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes'. So if you believe in equal gender rights, you are a feminist. By the same logic, if you do not consider yourself a feminist, you support neither women's rights nor gender equality in general.

The definition only has the word equality in it. It is a definition of inequality. 'on the ground of the equality of the sexes' is a statement, not an assertion. The assertion is 'the advocacy of women's rights', exclusively women. A statement of equality but only women have exclusive right to access that equality is consistent throughout the feminist movement, from moderate to extreme. They only vary in the excuse of why men are excluded. From 'I only do the women bit', to 'we're correcting an imbalance' to 'men are evil and don't deserve it'.

When feminist have thought their best political avenue was 'I'm a poor little flower, someone has to bash him up and just give it to me', they did. When throwing reams of paper with numbers they made up on the weekend was best, they did. When screaming 'I'll tear you a new one' they did'. Equality has had nothing to do with it. It's a political faction getting what they want, just because they want it.

Equity and equality are words, and they mean what they mean and not what they don't. Political factions often use loaded words to incite hysteria and prejudice to gain support and power. Equality in feminism is political slogan, it has nothing to do with the movement. Feminism was started by a group of privileged women who realized they didn't need to maintain positive co-operative relationships with others to maintain their own welfare. The state had become so well resourced that they could use the resource and power of the state to provide and enforce compliance, and didn't have to pretend to be nice to them anymore. This has remained the mechanism of feminism from its beginning to this day.

So yes, it is valid to make statements of equality where apt, and reject feminism.

rg57 · 2015-07-11T19:18:12+00:00

Equality is a measurement. By itself, it's too vague to tell you whether you also have justice.

If you are talking about something that is a right, like speech, or access to health care, or not being sent off to fight in a violent war, then equality of outcome leads to justice.

If you are talking about something that is not a right, like being a football player, or being elected to political office, then equality of opportunity leads to justice.

I cannot think of a case where justice can exist without some form of equality between sexes.

chocoboat · 2015-07-05T14:34:37+00:00

Equality means ignoring people's color/gender/other physical characteristics (except when directly relevant), a lack of discrimination, and offering the same opportunities to succeed to everyone.

This is a very good thing, and it means a lot less injustice happens than a world where people are discriminated against and denied opportunities.

Being in favor of equality does not automatically mean that women matter more than men, or feminist ideas are better than MRA ideas. In fact, that would be the opposite of equality.

Title	Equality ≠ justice, or does it?
Author	pizza_pizza66
Upvotes	20
Comments	12
Date	July 5, 2015 1:16 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3c6z6z/equality_justice_or_does_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/equality-justice-or-does-it.976158 https://theredarchive.com/post/976158

Comments