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Circumcision case: Jailed mom who hid with 4-year-old boy signs consent for procedure

MR_Movement

May 24, 2015
84 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-circumcision-mother-court-hearing-20150522-story.html
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Post Information
Title Circumcision case: Jailed mom who hid with 4-year-old boy signs consent for procedure
Author

MR_Movement

Upvotes 84
Comments 29
Date May 24, 2015 6:28 PM UTC
(11 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3744tm/circumcision_case_jailed_mom_who_hid_with/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/circumcision-case-jailed-mom-who-hid-with-4-year.979407
https://theredarchive.com/post/979407
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Comments

[–]MR_Movement[S] 43 points44 points45 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

In America, it is a federal crime to circumcise a female but a court can force a parent, against their will, to circumcise a male. This double standard must be rectified.

[–]novice_at_life 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I agree, but there doesn't seem any way to change the general public's opinion on the matter. I've argued 'til I was blue in the face with many people, but they still say it's just the "normal" thing to do. Society has been too accepting of this atrocity for too long.

[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]novice_at_life 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd assume there are a lot of people out there who have never even had the inevitability of circumcision challenged, they've never even considered the alternative.

I think you are so right with this statement, ironically, I myself had never questioned the act until the mother of my oldest son (not married) brought up the subject, then i looked into it and realized that this was not only not a necessary practice but a barbaric one. She ended up circumcising him anyways, but my two younger children (who I had more control over, being I was married to their mother at the time) were not cut.

The whole "they should look like the rest of their family members" argument is just so ludicrous, my sons and I never sit around comparing our penises so I don't even know if they're aware that theirs look different from mine.

there are still a lot of people who truly believe the religious propaganda that it's healthier or whatever.

I don't even know if I'd consider it religious propaganda anymore, I think it's more the medical community pushing the propaganda, so they can continue charging for this procedure to be done and then sell the foreskins after the fact. If "we" stopped doing routine circumcision completely, the medical community would lose out on millions annually. Hence the CDC's recent push to endorse it and the AAP's stance for years to refuse to official weigh in either way but to continue to say "the benefits outweigh the risks", which is a total farce to begin with.

[–]MordorsFinest 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

objectively speaking, assuming the operation takes place in a hospital with clean equipment, is FGM really worse than MGM? Of course FGM results in more complications and deaths since most of the time it's done with a heated rock whereas MGM happens in hospitals.

[–]VladVV 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

FGM also happens in hospitals, though usually clinics. It's just not legal to do on people under the age of 18. That's the difference here.

[–]RockFourFour 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What boggles my mind is that 'normal' doesn't have to mean 'ok' or 'acceptable'. I'm circumcised myself and totally ok with what I have, but I certainly wouldn't force it upon an infant or child in a situation where it's medically unnecessary.

The double standard seems to be typical of the way males are treated in our society.

[–]unforgiver 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It starts one person at a time. I did not circumcise my son, however I was. It was the normal thing to do when I was a baby, but my wife and I got educated on it and decided not to subject our little boy to senseless mutilation

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I'd like to hear even a single feminist weigh in on this.

[–]MordorsFinest 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

i had a very feminist ex, believes in wage gap and patriarchy and thought MensRights is the new Nazism, who was adamantly against male circumcision. There is some hope.

edit: as i recall she had a relative who had an infant male who was circumcised, and this traumatized her maybe since she may have had to babysit during the child's recovery period and I imagine it's harder for a decent human to see it as a normal to mutilate a child. She also had a fetish for uncircumcised dicks so maybe that was part of it.

Edit2: btw she probably still thinks mensrights is nazism, its not like she thinks we are good people and still belives 1/3 women are raped and false accusations are barely real. But she was always anti circumcision/ anti MGM

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

i had a very feminist ex, believes in wage gap and patriarchy and thought MensRights is the new Nazism, who was adamantly against male circumcision. There is some hope.

That's something I guess.

But I meant more specifically what are their thoughts that a court can order a boy to be circumcised while it is very illegal to do the same to girls in a society that supposedly benefits women over men in every way.

[–]MordorsFinest 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Pretty sure she'd be against the court forcing someone to do a circumcision of a boy because in her opinion it hurts the child and is unnecessary. Everyone's against FGM but there are women like my ex, or that kid's mother, who think circumcision is wrong.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

That's refreshing to hear. I won't expect feminists to protest this any time soon, or ever, but at least some appear to be decent human beings.

[–]tralalalalalalalala_ 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, I'm a "dictionary-definition" feminist: for me personally, feminism=gender equality.

I don't agree with the current popular narrative that this patrioachy of all the men are oppressing all the women who are de facto victims--and this doesn't make me or anyone involved in MRA pro-rape or anti-women. I believe gender equality cannot be achieved by silencing what men have to say on the issue. (And vice versa.)

I am against both male and female circumcision.

From the WHO page on female circumcision:

Key facts Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.

True for male circumcision

The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.

You know what else prevents HIV? A condom.

Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later cysts, infections, infertility as well as complications in childbirth and increased risk of newborn deaths.

FGM does have more more potential for complications, not going to ignore that. Less harmful doesn't mean less wrong, though.

More than 125 million girls and women alive today have been cut in the 29 countries in Africa and Middle East where FGM is concentrated

Which means it's a cultural norm in a lot of countries. Doesn't make it less wrong or harmful.

FGM is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15.

Same with male circumcision.

FGM is a violation of the human rights of girls and women.

Then so is circumcision.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't you think it's odd that under the patriarchy it's legal to force this on boys but not girls?

[–]jtoppings95 -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It was court ordered because she took the child and fled after having already agreed to the procedure. The child was suffering from a condition where his foreskin would not retract, which causes extreme discomfort and pain. She was forced to do it because she broke the law in more than one way, and endangered a child all the while

[–]MR_Movement[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It was court ordered because she took the child and fled after having already agreed to the procedure.

God how I wish the courts would lock up mothers for contempt who refuse to let fathers have visitation that is court ordered.

The child was suffering from a condition where his foreskin would not retract, which causes extreme discomfort and pain.

It can in some cases but does not appear to in this case. Urination down the leg is the only reason cited. No pain or discomfort has been noted. And his urologist claims there is no medical need for the procedure nor is there a religious one. The boy is 4 years old now and will require anesthetics. It is claimed that the boy does not want the procedure and is actually now afraid of having it done.

She was forced to do it because she broke the law in more than one way...

So much for the best interest of the child, eh? What does her breaking the law have to do with him getting circumcised?

...and endangered a child all the while.

What? Seriously, where are you getting that from?

[–]Zuke88 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

how on earth is this considered consent?!?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

the boy wasn’t drunk so therefore consents. ez

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Since when is coerced consent consent?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When it involves the genitals of males.

[–]MordorsFinest 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

coerced according to the newspaper, maybe she was convinced to agree to the circumcision or be sued more.

[–]novice_at_life 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That would be coercion, forcing someone to do something to avoid further repercussions

[–]BaronVonWasteland 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Anyone interested in helping the boy get his wish and save his foreskin (yes the boy himself does not consent to the procedure...) please join us in a letter writing campaign to inform urologists across the country what an ethical tar pit taking this child on as a patient would be.

[–]Nyanu 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Poor boy, he's having his body violated without his consent. He's 4 years old! This isn't an infant we're talking about. This is much worse. You're really going to restrain the boy and cut off bits of himself for no reason?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Maybe I missed an earlier discussion, but doesn't the article say that the child has a legitimate medical issue involving an inability to retract his foreskin? If there's nothing wrong with the foreskin, then of course there's no reason to remove it, but it sounds like that isn't the case here.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Inability to retract your foreskin at his age is pretty normal and nearly always recovers with time. Furthermore, even if it was permanent it can be treated without entirely excising the foreskin.

[–]novice_at_life 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Phimosis

Which should not even be attempted to be diagnosed at 4 years of age.

A Danish survey found that the mean age of first foreskin retraction is 10.4 years.

[–]AryaBarzan 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Disgusting. Poor son and mother. Annoys me that there isn't more outrage over this. Feminists, with all of their funding, could do sooo much about this but they'd rather whine about "rape culture" or "fat-shaming" or some other non-issue.

Anita Sarkeesian got nearly half a million dollars from feminists for her repeatedly debunked, falsified "Tropes in Video Games' videos and this woman got pretty much zil. $10 says this news never even appeared on most feminist outlets.

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