~ archived since 2018 ~

Men need patriarchy

December 19, 2022
3 upvotes

All the hemming and hawing and panicking about muh lost and unproductive men, it's all quite simply why it's happening:

Men need to be shepherded to their place at the head of the table of their families, and in the absence of that, what you're seeing is what you'll get more and more of

It is what it is

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Post Information
Title Men need patriarchy
Author Gomdofthefall
Upvotes 3
Comments 71
Date December 19, 2022 5:59 PM UTC (3 months ago)
Subreddit /r/AllPillDebate
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/AllPillDebate/men-need-patriarchy.1143332
https://theredarchive.com/post/1143332
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/AllPillDebate/comments/zpyl97/men_need_patriarchy/
Comments

[–]debatelord_1 2 points3 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Just because you have a patriarchy and a woman is forced to be with you to get by doesn't mean she will genuinely love you. She'll merely tolerate you for the benefits you provide.

If you're fine with that then you can just go to an escort today and get the same thing essentially.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

the same thing essentially.

What marriage offers today is the worst of both worlds

Not genuine, still expensive, yet not even permanent

[–]rurunoa 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

then dont marry

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Duh lol

[–]HateSpeechFanBoy -2 points-1 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

It’s not the same as an escort. If a female is with you, she can grow to like you

[–]TaxNegative161 1 point2 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Yes, HateSpeechFanBoy, you definitely sound like someone who only gets more likeable the more people get to know the real you.

[–]HateSpeechFanBoy 2 points3 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I’m not talking about myself. The fact that you tried to attack me means you have no argument

[–]TaxNegative161 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Oh I was agreeing with you. I definitely become more attractive to women the more I get to know them.

[–]HateSpeechFanBoy 1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

I really doubt it, you seem like an insufferable asshole

[–]TaxNegative161 -1 points0 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

It's actually good to have someone who proudly stans hate speech to proclaim you an asshole, dude. If you really wanted to own me you'd follow me around telling me how much I ruled.

[–]HateSpeechFanBoy 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

Hate speech is free speech. Anyone who is against free speech is an authoritarian and in my view an asshole. I don’t care about “owning you” lmao, you are a pathetic Reddit soy triggered by “hate speech”

[–]TheProkopton -1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

He didn't say that hate speech should be illegal, just that those who do hate speech should morally speaking be rightfully called assholes.

[–]HateSpeechFanBoy 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

He didn’t say that and “hate speech” doesn’t exist. It’s something soys made up

[–]TaxNegative161 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why thank you, hate speech enthusiast, it really is good to know that I don't live up to any of the values you consider important!

[–]HateSpeechFanBoy 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol dude, you are the one who started replying to me. I honestly couldn’t care less what values you espouse.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Under patriarchy, women aren't necessarily "forced" into a certain lifestyle anymore than women are under today's feminism.

[–]RatDontPanicAverage Unfrustrated Chump 2 points3 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Patriarchy, just like feminism, leaves men as disposable cogs. Fuck that, I don't want male disposability, not even when they hand me chocolates to placate me.

[–]no_bling_just_dingself-aware MSTOW (hit the wall at age 0) 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

wise

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

What do you want

[–]RatDontPanicAverage Unfrustrated Chump 1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

I want men to not be disposable.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

What would that look like

[–]RatDontPanicAverage Unfrustrated Chump 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

It would look like egalitarianism - treating everyone equally, by the same moral standards. Which would negate the usefulness of a patriarchy or matriarchy.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Truly impossible without castration or some other crazy hormonal/psychological intervention

Men win or women win

you're either at the table or you're on the menu

[–]RatDontPanicAverage Unfrustrated Chump 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

It happens just fine in my household and if it works here it works in many other places too. You think too much in black and white.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Something can work for some individual outliers and/or freaks without being sufficiently broadly replicable to be the glue for an entire society

[–]RatDontPanicAverage Unfrustrated Chump 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Funny, that works both ways.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Patriarchy has demonstrated itself as a social glue across time and space

Has whatever alternative lifestyle you're peddling so done

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men & women can both win under patriarchy.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's literally just feminist lol

[–]RatDontPanicAverage Unfrustrated Chump 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism isn't egalitarianism. Look at the Duluth Model and its literal trivialization of violence against men by women. It was written by feminists and is the de facto law of the land.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

If you don't believe in patriarchy then you're a feminist. MRA/redpill/manosphere types are largely just male feminists, every bit as whiny & simple-minded as their female counterparts.

[–]RatDontPanicAverage Unfrustrated Chump 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nah I'm an egalitarian. I don't subscribe to either extremist ideology. My gender right or wrong is not my way.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's called being a consistent, old-school feminist. Patriarchy isn't an ideology by itself.

[–]RatDontPanicAverage Unfrustrated Chump 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is the kind of feminist I can respect even if you say potato and I say potahto.

[–]Eyesofmalice 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

This is a huge cope.

Thinking average and below average men weren’t used as literally chimney cleaners before, you just want to delude yourself into thinking that if you had been born in other time in history you wouldn’t be bottom of the barrel.

The biggest scam men fall into nowadays is thinking that the patriarchy means equal privileges for all men. It was under the patriarchy when men were sent to the Middle East to die while rich boys slept with their wives.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Men had supremacy over their women. I mean we can cherrypick patriarchies sure, how about 1950, America, list me the downsides oh enlightened sage of wisdom and wit

[–]Eyesofmalice 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Men still have the supremacy over women, the 80%\20% shows that,.

Besides ideolozing a time when hitting women was commonplace and racism was even worse shows that at best you’re being oblivious and at worst you just want to beat women and say the n word.

What feminism did cant be undone, feminism simply showed men that women simply didn’t like us enough, and that if it weren’t for violence, they simply wouldn’t give the time of day to 80% of males. Thinking that we can’t go back to a more conservative time will destroy that realization is a joke. Back then your mom and my mom only tolerates our dads because of the fear of physical violence and destitution, but that isn’t love.

Which is another tough reality that we must face, love is only possible for 20% of people. Back then people weren’t more in love, a staple of that time were jokes about how much men and women secretly hated their spouse, or cheated all the time. At least now you have the knowledge to avoid being a cuck.

Face reality dude, take the black pill. It’s over , it has always been.

If you want proof just read the odyssey, one of the earliest texts we had , and see for yourself what was the fate of the average man in the most ruthless time of the patriarchy.

[–]Anti_Thing -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

What feminism did cant be undone, feminism simply showed men that women simply didn’t like us enough, and that if it weren’t for violence, they simply wouldn’t give the time of day to 80% of males. Thinking that we can’t go back to a more conservative time will destroy that realization is a joke. Back then your mom and my mom only tolerates our dads because of the fear of physical violence and destitution, but that isn’t love.

Outright violence isn't necessary, only social control. In my social circles (moderately conservative Evangelicals) physical violence will get you shunned & reported to the police, & most women have college degrees & careers, & yet average women settle for average men. People have loved each other throughout history across all cultures.

[–]Eyesofmalice 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Outright violence is necessary, emotional control and the restriction of a gender are forms of violence, and última they need to be reinforced either through direct or indirect violence. Besides is ludicrous to think that an evangelical Christian could even fathom to have love be controlled socially when loved is supposed to be a gift from God. Saying that we need to force people into loving one another is paganism, since it is tempting God btw.

You can read Kierkegaard if you ever feel like it for more on that. Anyway college degrees and careers aren’t a marker of critical thinking in today’s world anyway, never has been I’d argue, and lukacs wud agree with me on that.

Again settling I fine, but deluding yourself into thinking that through control you can get love is just blasphemous. If you’re really a Christian you should be ashamed of yourself for spreading such downright pagan worldview.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

ALL societies exert control, ESPECIALLY modern feminist society in how it pressures women into idolizing formal education & masculine careers above all else. There's nothing violent about a properly run church. You seem to have an extremely broad view of violence that includes literally all form of social organization. According to the Bible, love is a duty. The Bible sets out a system of social control that the church must use, & on top of that there's the informal social control that all groups of people have, including your own family & your own social circles. The Bible demands rigorous controls on sexuality.

I never claimed that college degrees or careers are markers of critical thinking, in fact I think they're overrated. I was merely pushing back against the notion that devoutly religious women tend to settle for their looksmatch & statusmatch simply because they're poor, stupid, & risk physical violence for not doing so. The fact is that average women are capable of choosing average men & loving them for the rest of their lives, all of their own free will. No violence is necessary for this, only socialization into the right values as part of a supportive but disciplined community.

Through Christian control, people are obligated to love one another. "Getting love" through control is a crude way of looking at it. We simply have strict values, though if course we're still normal people who want sex & children. I've seen with my own eyes that this results in over 80% of women marrying fairly average guys & loving them deeply. Your 20/80 observation may be true for modern mainstream Western society (I'm not sure it is but I'm willing to accept that for now for argument's sake), but in my experience it just doesn't apply to the small minority of very devout religious people, & based on my experiences & studies I don't think it necessarily applies to traditional/tribal societies either, though of course different tribes have vastly different traditions around sexuality.

[–]Eyesofmalice 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree that all societies except control, and I believe modern women are in certain ways very privileged, you won’t be able to strip that privilege without violence. If you are able to strip it in a non violent way, the the privilege originally laid on your side. For example, I can’t just decide that a rich person is going to give me their money and that’s that, for that I have to exert violence in order to destroy privilege. Women came to acquire some privileges merely accidentally simply because capitalism needed for social relations to dilute in order to effectively have moving capital that reign above traditional structures. Marx famously says “in capitalism all that’s solid evaporates into air” The patriarchy didn’t survive capitalism in the state in which it had reigned for centuries, nor is current feminism the same feminism we saw in for example the Soviet Union, right now privilege is championed by a white rich elite who can desecrate all forms of social structures in order to increase their capital.

If you want to establish a Christian society you necessarily need to dismantle capitalism, and that can’t be done through non violent means. If it were possible then Jesus would have fallen to the temptations, it is implied that the world and nature are in such a state of sin that it’s impossible to achieve the kingdom of god on earth.

Being capable of something doesn’t mean for that thing to be good, people is capable to live happily while being functioning alcohólica and raging mysoginists, so the argument for happiness is pure propaganda in not buying. We shouldn’t strive for happiness, we should strive for truth and let happiness be a byproduct. If we assume women have enough power to let themselves be influenced, then the people who’s doing the influencing are the people in power, if they’re the ones influencing themselves then only themselves can achieve their redemption. Because it would be ludicrous to think that they have to be forced to make you happy and then hope that they find happiness in the process, they have to choose that freely and voluntarily, and have to do it while having a historical disadvantage. You sometimes sound as if women weren’t beaten on the regular only forty years ago, it’s a very postmodern mindset though, it’s thinking that the movement of technological and spiritual progress is followed by historical progress, but as Hegel notes, sometimes the spirit doesn’t follow historical development.

And also why is people so enamored with pre modern societies anyway? You know that those traditional Americans from the fifties were in favor of segregation, right? An alarming amount were fine with torturing Japanese people to death, we’re only a few years removed from supposedly rational and Christian leaders being ok with bombing a country back to the stone age. I work with hospitals as a translator for example, the amount of women and kids who are charged by Christian hospitals exorbitant amounts of money for healthcare and who live in squalor is staggering, so don’t come here pretending as if people in the fifties were these mythic quasy classical era heroes who had achieved societal perfection, they hadn’t.

Go watch an interview or a reality show from the time, and face the horror of a people who were as ignorant, violent and authoritarian as we are. Hell, weren’t there persecution and spying in the fifties for the sole mention of being a communist? Weren’t the 50s kid the ones who dropped napalm on civilians in Vietnam??? And you’re telling me those are the moral champions we should follow? Get a fucking grip.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm already at the bottom of the barrel, as far as mainstream middle-class society around me is concerned. If I was born in another time I would likely already have a wife & kids.

Patriarchy is a big umbrella. We can't go back to the past but we can't keep continuing along the road of increasingly extreme modern feminism, either.

[–]Eyesofmalice 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you were bottom of the barrel in other times you wouldn’t have a wife, you’d probably just be tortured to death or starved by some bored noble.

[–]MicrosoftOSX 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women need patriarchy more than men.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

The US stopped being a nation where the average man held a strong stake in society by virtue of being American the moment they took global corporations as their moral arbiters instead of the Bible.

[–]TsugaC1 points [recovered] (22 children) | Copy Link

Always fascinating to watch Americans pretend The Bible didn’t originate in the Middle East with stories of and about brown people.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Christianity isn't a religion for white people. No one ever said it was either. It's a religion for everyone

[–]TsugaC1 points [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

Interesting take, considering the country’s founders massacred the natives and established the USA in an attempt to escape Christian rule.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

And what made the US a functioning nation with an actual civilization was the historic ruling European population and Christian values. This country would never have had a civilization if it pandered to the things lefties do today.

[–]TsugaC1 points [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

No, what made the US a functioning nation was exterminating millions of natives, raping their children, stealing their land, kidnapping slaves, raping their children, building an economy entirely on slave labor.

One of the most immoral civilizations in world history. The atrocities committed by the Europeans is unmatched by any other country at the time.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

Ahh, mention all the bad things but not the good, as usual. You should be grateful, you wouldn't be here with all the privileges you have today if it weren't for all the traditional values that was the backbone of the USA

[–]TsugaC1 points [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

A lot of people wouldn’t be here if the US weren’t one of the last western counties to free slaves. And some of your family wouldn’t be here if your great great grandfathers weren’t fucking black children they owned.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

What exactly is your point? Do you want white Americans to support ideologies that don't benefit them at all? Give up their heritage and denounce their identity and traditions over guilt? Slavery has existed all over the world, not just the USA and Europe

[–]TsugaC1 points [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

I want Christians to read a history book and also stop using the most ridiculous of all the logical fallacies because the Golden Age fallacy is so laughably easy to disprove. This country was founded by immoral monsters and maintained by immoral monsters until well into the 20th century.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The atrocities committed by the Europeans is unmatched by any other country at the time.

Absolutely false. The Chinese, Middle Easterners, indeed native Americans themselves were comparable when it came to atrocities.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The founders who wrote America's constitution were generally Christians, or at least grew up Christian & accepted many Christian values. If you're referring to the earlier Pilgrims, they literally set up a Christian theocracy.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't see anybody here pretending that, in fact hardly any Americans do.

[–]TsugaC1 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

It may be hard to see it if you are a subscriber, but the peculiar hybrid between American Exceptionalism and White Christianity is a cult in and of itself. They’ve re-written both American history and Christian history to support their political values.

[–]Anti_Thing 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not American so I can't comment much on that. White Christians tend to be more liberal. American conservatives' often bizarre attitudes towards their founding fathers & constitution exists quite independently of Christianity; there just happens to be large overlap between them because conservatives are more likely to be religious.

[–]OberOst 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

We do live in the patriarchy. Men make up the majority of leaders and decision makers. The patriarchy has never went away. It's the (futile) attempt to upturn patriarchy that has damaged men.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok, needs to be patriarchy-er, 1950 style

[–]HateSpeechFanBoy -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No we don’t. Females are not allowed to be criticised, females are prioritised for everything. That is not “patriarchy”

[–]Odd-Luck7658 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nonsense. Strong men don't need to be shepherded anywhere.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It was for all men by virtue of being men, that they were the heads of their households.

[–]FortniteAbobusWhitePill 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

At least we know the result and it's ok. Sure it can be improved.

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What do you mean

[–]FortniteAbobusWhitePill 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean that patriarchy works. With flaws, but it's ok.

[–]rurunoa 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

and women need financial freedom. nobody is stopping you from living the trad life btw

[–]Gomdofthefall[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Needs everyone to be involved to work like Obamacare

[–]rurunoa 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

good

[–]Glad-Discount-4761 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

World just need patriarchy and women in her 20s. That's it.Rest should die or accept it lol

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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