Alternative to conservative “equality of opportunity not outcome”

a-man-from-earth · 2022-06-07T00:13:42+00:00

Poorly argued and worded post, so removed as low-effort. Also, how does this relate to male issues (rule 1)?

As /u/BloomingBrains already said, equality of opportunity is a liberal and egalitarian value, not so much a conservative one. So it's not clear what you're arguing here.

Lhwing · 2022-06-06T19:00:34+00:00

What do you mean by outcome leads to opportunity? Equality of opportunity is for me not being discriminated by gender ethnicity or anything else.

Motanul_Negru · 2022-06-06T18:51:03+00:00

Here's my downvote magnet hot take, as an avowed leftist:

Equality of opportunity is nice but not important. What I want is sufficiency of opportunity for all. Let's have everyone or as many people as possible be educated properly so they can form a reasonable opinion as to what a good life for them would be, and let's then give them the tools (including mental) to get there, while being useful to the community, so that it can afford to continue to do this. Virtuous cycle.

BloomingBrains · 2022-06-06T23:54:13+00:00

I'm not sure I understand this post on any level.

How does outcome lead to opportunity? Opportunity comes first.

How is equality of opportunity a conservative argument? Its the argument of true liberal values. The ones asking for equality of outcome are the radial left wokes and they're really so far left they horshoed to the right again.

What does any of this have to do with a social safety net? Social safety nets seem like they have more to do with opportunity that outcome. Outcome would be saying you're magically prevented from failing. Opportunity would be, you can stumble in life but the safety net will allow you to bounce back for the opportunity to try again.

BadGyalElise · 2022-06-06T21:54:51+00:00

Equality of outcome and equality of opportunity are more intent statements than they are actually pragmatic political programs.

Equality of opportunity roughly lines up with meritocracy. It means you’re in control of your fate, and nobody is rigging the game for or against you, and specifically not the state. It also means that you would get rewarded fairly for both your efforts and your results. There’s a point to be made about meritocratic preferences being an evolved trait but it’s WIP research.

I think the difference in outlook between conservatives and progressives, beyond ideological stances, is located on the relative value of effort. A progressive would say, if you’re contributing your fair share to society, you should be able to live a modest but decent life. A conservative would say, efforts aren’t worth shit, only results make the world go round. It’s not really a matter of complex chains of effects, of impeding or preserving social reproduction, or optimising the outlook of the system. It’s just intuitive morals.

I would go as far as saying that even progressives don’t intuitively like non-contributive government programs, they just make a conscious effort to go against their spontaneous aversion for them for political theory reasons. And conservatives on the other hand, to diminish the intuitive value of effort, need to fuel their just world fallacy and locate effort beyond the 50H weekly spent flipping burgers or moving crates or whipping asses. If you’re stuck doing that, that’s because you slacked at some other time so everything lines up. I think getting them to talk about a living wage is a good strategic approach because it frames the problem on this very dimension, that efforts are worth rewarding too.

Anyway, when it comes to gendered issues, this is why I don’t support quotas whatever the political objective. It just shrieks through our intuitive morals and will result in backlash regardless of the legitimacy. Whether it is for empowering women or men depending on the situation, we need other tools that aren’t so counter-intuitive.

Skirt_Douglas · 2022-06-06T18:50:09+00:00

My own personal belief is instead of equality of opportunity which conservatives don’t really guarantee is a social safety net so if there is systemic unfairness that you at least don’t die on the street.

It looks like you set up a point that you ended up not making. What exactly is your alternative belief?

Title	Alternative to conservative “equality of opportunity not outcome”
Author	Cunari
Upvotes	9
Comments	13
Date	June 6, 2022 6:16 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/v69w1x/alternative_to_conservative_equality_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/alternative-to-conservative-equality-of.1116992 https://theredarchive.com/post/1116992

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