'From a reproductive perspective'

Melthengylf · 2019-09-07T17:30:24+00:00

I strongly disagree with that perspective, for four reasons:

1) successful men are not my enemies. I want an egalitarian society, competitiveness amongst men for "pussy" is extremely toxic.

2) this is not a finite cake. Women's hornieness varies, so the total sex they give varies, because women's libido is receptive. We can become sexier men as a whole and get all of us more sex.

3) talking about sex as something purely biological obscures that the need for sex stems from a need for affection. As it is now, talking about it like it was a pre-human needs makes us men seen entitled to it. When we express it as it is, a need for sexual affection, that changes.

3) isolation in this culture is destructive. Porn doesn't fix that. We need to take care of each other us men, nonsexual affection is a thing, hugs, empathy, emotional connection. Although it doesn't substitute sex, it goes a long way. Hugs between men are better than sex robots.

serpentineeyelash · 2019-09-08T09:17:58+00:00

I have come across the sex-for-meat explanation before, and I find it a more convincing explanation for the origin of gender roles than the standard feminist explanation that it was all about men wanting to ensure paternity certainty. An ultimately matriarchal dynamic (and instincts) may underlie the apparent "patriarchy" of recorded human history. If true, this means that the niggling issues raised by male advocates are not mere side-effects of the "patriarchy", as feminists claim!

The finding that porn availability reduces sexual violence appears to be cross-cultural, so I think it is more than just a chance correlation. For example, in the Czech Republic after 1989, when the Soviet Union collapsed and pornography suddenly became legal, sexual crimes decreased but non-sexual crimes increased. (Though that might contradict another part of Barnett's argument - that porn reduces male-on-male violence.)

I think there is a slight inaccuracy in this part of Barnett's argument:

Since women control access to sex, so enforcement of monogamy was done by shaming women into withholding sex until marriage.

Surely this was already well and truly underway in the ancient polygynous societies, several thousand years before Christianity? If anything, the shift to monogamy was about stigmatizing male polygamy. This doesn't really undermine Barnett's overall argument, but it means he has the chronology wrong.

I am inclined to agree with Barnett's overall conclusion that monogamy may not be the most desirable solution to the incel issue, and I certainly agree that porn should continue to be easily available and various other sexual outlets should be made more available. On the other hand, this still does not address the need to be sexually desired as u/Melthengylf points out.

PrincessofPatriarchy · 2019-09-08T05:11:45+00:00

Study after study finds correlations between rising porn consumption and declining sexual violence, and these correlations are stark.

Correlations are not causation. There are numerous things that have happened in society in the past 25 years that could explain a decrease without porn being the answer.

That's also not a theory that is not given much traction:

Why has rape and violence against women, particularly younger women, declined so dramatically over the last generation?

Little research exists on this question, and tentative explanations -- from tougher sentencing of violent offenders to pornography’s effects in sublimating violence -- are not persuasive.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-feb-18-op-males18-story.html

Notice how it says there has been little research on the subject? Yet the linked article presents one theory as though it's the definitive answer. We don't know why, we need more research to confirm.

The linked article states:

...found that rising Internet usage in the previous decade had correlated with declines in rape, but (crucially) not with declines in other crimes...most of the decline was accounted for among “men ages 15-19, who typically live with their parents”.

Internet usage does not equate to pornography. It could also be video games, or social media addiction in general. Regardless, what this leaves out is that the biggest declines are among young men and not older men in general. Though presumably older men also use the internet. What the crime statistics show is that young people are committing less crimes in general, so rape is just one in a long list of crimes that has decreased in teenagers.

In other words, feminists believe that men rape not for sexual fulfillment, but out of a misogynistic desire to hurt women. This idea is undermined by a great body of evidence.

I'm not claiming to be a foremost expert on the subject. But I have looked into rape motivation, both as part of my degree program in criminal justice/human sexuality and in my free time from just pure curiosity to learn the motivations behind crime. The number one thing that seems to be clear again and again is that there is no such thing as one profile of a rapist. They are diverse as are the motivations. I agree, there are studies that contradict feminist theory, not all rape appears to be about simply power and control. However, to claim that this idea is completely undermined by the research is in my opinion, bullshit.

There absolutely are *some* rapists that do seem to be motivated by malice, including incredibly disturbed opinions and beliefs about women. Not all rapists are motivated by this, but I've not yet seen anything that indicates that none are, or that rape being used as a tool of control is "undermined". If anything studies on marital rape confirm this theory, as the research shows that marital rape is usually done for the purpose of punishing a spouse and not because the spouse has rejected sexual intercourse. There is also evidence that appears to confirm that some rapists are motivated by lust. Take for instance a stalker who accosts the object of their affection. There are studies that show all sorts of different motivations, and the only conclusion that has been reached from this is that rapists and rape motivations are diverse. Not that any of these theories has been "undermined".

This also completely ignores the fact that prostitutes report alarmingly high rates of rape. Oftentimes by clients. If all it took to eradicate sexual violence was to make sex freely available, then prostitutes would not be raped in the first place. Yet they frequently are, mainly because many of these people do not want a willing sex partner. I've seen the writing of first hand testimonies by some self-described rapists and they made it very clear that they enjoyed knowing that their victim was not consenting. They would turn consensual intercourse into rape, and found consensual sex with a willing partner boring. The article asks for us to pretend that doesn't happen and yet I've seen that consistency too many times across my research to dismiss it.

In addition, the article attempts to claim that because rape is motivated by lust/desire for sex, that means that simply offering sex is what would fix it. But that is not the case at all, because some people are sexually sadistic and while they absolutely commit rape for the purpose of lust, their lust is for an unwilling sex partner who is not consenting.

Another thing to keep in mind is that child pornography is still illegal and strongly prosecuted. If we are seeing declines in things like rape/child molestation of children then "porn" can't simply be the answer in all these cases.

Needless to say, this article pretends that the research is a done deal when I can confidently say, no, it is not. This is simply one theory being put forth, and it includes only studies/evidence that make it sound plausible while erasing everything else we have.

Title	'From a reproductive perspective'
Author	Blauwpetje
Upvotes	2
Comments	41
Date	September 7, 2019 2:08 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/d0wet2/from_a_reproductive_perspective/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/from-a-reproductive-perspective.1064514 https://theredarchive.com/post/1064514

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