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This app helps POC find therapists from their same cultural background. I'm not one for identity politics, but since the APA is entertaining the stereotype of "toxic masculinity", do you think something similar for men would be a good idea? I often hear incels complain about this in particular.

lbgravy

December 20, 2019
11 upvotes
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
https://blavity.com/new-app-helps-people-of-color-find-therapists-from-their-same-cultural-background?category1=news&subcat=Wellness
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Title This app helps POC find therapists from their same cultural background. I'm not one for identity politics, but since the APA is entertaining the stereotype of "toxic masculinity", do you think something similar for men would be a good idea? I often hear incels complain about this in particular.
Author

lbgravy

Upvotes 11
Comments 19
Date December 20, 2019 10:23 PM UTC
(6 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/edh23s/this_app_helps_poc_find_therapists_from_their/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/this-app-helps-poc-find-therapists-from-their-same.1201974
https://theredarchive.com/post/1201974
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inceltoxic masculinity
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Comments

[–]mtcapri 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

As a therapist, I can vouch for the fact that there's a sound rationale for entertaining preferences on demographic variables for things like therapists, doctors, other treating healthcare professionals, etc, which should obviously not be entertained in every profession. Opening up to a medical professional is very important for treatment, and some people aren't comfortable opening up fully to everyone regardless of background. There are a variety of reasons for this, including trauma history and culture, but the reason isn't really important, because it's about ensuring the best treatment outcome. We once got a legit, straight-up racist showing up for treatment at my clinic, and we respected his wish to be paired with a white, male therapist (which wound up being me).

Obviously, yes, a service like this should be available to men. I'm pretty sure if you went to any treatment clinic in the U.S. and stated a preference for a male therapist, you'd be granted one.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

True. You are absolutely right, of course. It's important that the patient / client be comfortable with their provider.

For example, my mom is chronically ill, and interestingly, she prefers to avoid female doctors. I have really tried to dissuade her from this in the beginning, but unfortunately she's had a couple of crucially bad experiences with female specialists (lack of understanding, not being taken seriously) and she is already extremely anxious when it comes to seeking medical help, so I've had to accomodate for this when helping her book appointments. Recently she did see a female specialist who was outstanding and spent 90 minutes with her, so I was hoping we could get over this mental block, but shortly after she saw another female doc who was horrid to her and it went south again.

So I get the comfort thing. However, I'm also conflicted about it, because I wouldn't want to completely normalize the notion that only [insert demographic X] can possibly begin to understand other [insert demographic X], thereby alienating people from each other based on their identity characteristics (a bit like how some people insist that white writers can't write about POC characters).

For what it's worth, I have a female therapist for general issues because for some reason I tend to feel more comfortable opening up to women. Of course, I believe that in general, female and male therapists are equally competent. However, I have considered looking for help specifically related to my dating issues, and I would probably pick a male therapist for that, because I think that a male therapist would better relate to those specific issues than a female one would.

[–]mtcapri 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There was some Australian charity that came under fire for adopting a policy of only hiring female therapists, because they cited research showing that a majority of DV victims (men included) felt more comfortable talking to women.

Sensitivity towards patients’ preferences is not an excuse for racist or sexist hiring practices, at least not to such a degree that you exclusively hire people from only one demographic background. That organization was ensuring it couldn’t help anyone who preferred a man, which is not in the interests of its constituency.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, that is also true. What I was talking about is selection on the patient's part, aka the free choice of therapist. Excluding people while hiring is wrong.

This is more of a grey area, a middle man that let's you select or search therapists based on their demographic characteristics.

[–]RockFourFour 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

As a therapist, I can vouch for the fact that there's a sound rationale for entertaining preferences on demographic variables for things like therapists, doctors, other treating healthcare professionals, etc, which should obviously not be entertained in every profession.

Quite honestly, I find this attitude to be extremely disturbing. We shouldn't be entertaining or legitimizing racism or sexism in any profession. It's wrong, full stop, and any attempt to make people think it's ok should be viewed the same.

If this behavior were to be legitimized, what's to stop hospitals, mental health clinics, etc from firing staff on racial/ethnic/gender grounds because they don't match up with the clientele that the facility typically receives? EEOC concerns aside, how could a business be expected to keep staff on that are requested less or not at all?

If a parent is a white supremacist, do they have the right to insist on their child's teachers only being white? How far do we go in coddling people's bigotry for their comfort?

EDIT: It appears that the medical field at least isn't bowing to the pressure:

https://www.sacbee.com/article167580377.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/patients-refusing-care-from-nurses-of-different-race-one-of-medicines-open-secrets/

EDIT 2: The APA doesn't appear to be on board, either:

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/04/therapists-discrimination

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As someone who works in healthcare (not in the U.S., but in Europe), it really depends. If the request is easily accomodated, it's more likely to happen than when it's inconvenient. For example, in an ER when there are multiple physicians available, if a female patient expresses a preference for a female doctor (for example, because she feels uncomfortable being touched a man while (half-)naked), then it's more likely to be accomodated. As a student, I've also been asked to leave the room while following doctors a few times because the patient expressed discomfort at the presence of a male student during the physical exam.

I haven't personally witnessed situations where a request was made for a change of healthcare professional due to gender when this was highly inconvenient or would lead to a significant delay in care. I would venture to guess that if an ER is working at full capacity and the only nurse or doctor available is refused by the patient because of gender, hospital staff would not be too inclined to disrupt everything just to accomodate one patient.

That said, I have never heard of requests for another healthcare professional based on race. I can't imagine that would ever fly over here, it would be seen as deeply racist and offensive.

[–]lbgravy[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

That's cool. But I was focusing more on the cultural aspect of the therapist. I don't really care who does the therapy, as long as they can make them better. But it's nice to have the option open to choose a specific demographic.

I was just curious thinking how someone who grew up in a "masculine" household could get around the APA guidelines by requesting someone who understands where they're coming from. Is that allowed?

I think it would really help to know that your mental health expert relates to you on some level. I hear similar complaints to the guys in the article all the time, but from incel communities.

[–]mtcapri 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I was just curious thinking how someone who grew up in a "masculine" household could get around the APA guidelines by requesting someone who understands where they're coming from. Is that allowed?

Yes. Furthermore, any therapist who knows what they're doing isn't going to insist on using language like "toxic masculinity" or even "traditional masculinity," if they get the sense it might offend the patient. There are always ways of addressing a patient's problems without bringing in political language or concepts. Sadly, there are plenty of therapists out there who don't know what they're doing, will make the mistake of using this sort of language, and feel justified in doing so, because of the APA's endorsement of it. I have real problems with the APA's "guidelines" about how to treat men and women, because I think both documents inject gender politics into a field that shouldn't involve them at all.

[–]mewacketergi 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I have real problems with the APA's "guidelines" about how to treat men and women, because I think both documents inject gender politics into a field that shouldn't involve them at all.

I think this is a bigger problem than the often-discussed feminist bigotry and hatred — their uses of critical theory and social constructivist yadda-yadda seems to be poisoning social sciences and undermining the scientific parts of psychology and social science which don't rely on explicitly ideological and political ideas.

[–]mtcapri 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I think they’re intimately related. Feminists have been saying these things for far longer than the APA has, and I think it rather naïve to think there’s no causal connection there. It would not be the first time feminist ideology has poisoned the social sciences either.

EDIT: Nevermind, I misread your comment. I think we're in agreement, no?

[–]mewacketergi 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, we are!

I think this is a systemic crisis, where their ideology, which I see as about as scientifically sound as Soviet Marxism-Leninism or Christian divinity studies, compounds the usual anti-scientific problems we have as a society.

[–]mtcapri 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Good, I totally agree. Some years back, my intellectual focus was actually on the atheism-religion debate, and these days I find feminism exhibits many of the same anti-scientific flaws that religion does.

[–]mewacketergi 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Good, I totally agree.

Yes, thank you!

And with feminism this problem is made worse by the general lack of awareness and recognition of it, in fact, being an organized religion.

So the measures invented by the liberal democracies to make organized religion safer, more compatible with the democracy do not apply to them — no prohibition of teaching it in schools, governments do finance it, and it is not carefully separated from science...

This is pretty damn bad, and I think eventually this slowly brewing crisis is going to explode in our faces in one form, or another.

Edit: Rephrase for comprehend-ability.

[–]mewacketergi 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for your perspective.

[–]Kreeps_United 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This sub is identity politics.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This doesn't really merit a downvote, because it's true.

I'd personally distinguish between two forms of identity politics: soft identity politics, which acknowledges that there are issues specific to different demographic groups, or that certain universal problems can affect specific groups in specific ways; and hard identity politics, which rigidly defines every interaction as a power differential between an oppressor group and an oppressed group, thus resulting in situations like the "progressive stack".

[–]magus678 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said.

I'd say the primary difference, at least for me, between the two groups is that the first only needs egalitarian ideals to be applied consistently to solve the problem, while the second is asking for exceptions to those ideals.

[–]mewacketergi 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Everything in the West is these days, but LWMA is so to a lesser extent.

Edit: Typo.

[–]mewacketergi 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes.

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