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What feminists call "internalized misogyny" could just as easily be called "toxic femininity". Women have agency too.

Lady_Coraline2

January 25, 2020

40 upvotes

/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates

https://humanparts.medium.com/toxic-femininity-is-a-thing-too-513088c6fcb3?source=---------41------------------

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Post Information

Title	What feminists call "internalized misogyny" could just as easily be called "toxic femininity". Women have agency too.
Author	Lady_Coraline2
Upvotes	40
Comments	19
Date	January 25, 2020 5:15 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ettgad/what_feminists_call_internalized_misogyny_could/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/what-feminists-call-internalized-misogyny-could.1064118 https://theredarchive.com/post/1064118

Comments

[–]Strikester101 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

When I think of "toxic femininity", I primarily think of passive-aggressive bullying and social ostracization tactics in the style of "Mean Girls".

Everyone who has ever attended a mixed-gender or all-girls high school is familiar with the "alpha bitch".

"Toxic masculinity" (when it's not just used as a lazy synonym for "anything a man does I don't like") is about the stereotypical ways in which men assert their dominance over others (physical violence, homophobia, 'tough guy' posturing, basically any tactic used to show you're more "alpha" than anyone else). So in my mind, the female equivalent would consist of stereotypical ways in which women assert their social dominance over other women and men (such as their boyfriend or husband). I'd say these are: spreading malicious gossip, engaging in slut-shaming (or more controversially, creep-shaming), and emotional abuse.

This is backed up by the expert opinion of a Dutch criminologist Martina Althoff. The article is in Dutch, but I've Google translated it for you:

Whether it is individual violence, such as assault and manslaughter, or group violence, such as riots and war, men are more often to blame than women. More than 80 percent of violent crimes in the Netherlands are committed by men. Women, statistics show, are more often victims than perpetrators of violence. You could conclude from this that women are more peaceful. But is that correct too?

"Men are generally more violent than women," agrees Martina Althoff, senior lecturer in criminology at the University of Groningen. "But women are certainly no less dangerous. If you look at forms of violence separately, you can see that women can be just as violent as men. ”

Take domestic violence, for example. Recent research by the Scientific Research and Documentation Center (WODC) shows that the number of female perpetrators of domestic violence is about the same as the number of male perpetrators. Of the female participants in the study, 3.6 percent said they had been domestic violence in the last five years, compared with 3.4 percent of men.

However, with domestic violence we often think of the man as the perpetrator and the woman as the victim. According to Althoff that is socially determined. "We have a certain expectation about the behavior and identity of men and women. Men are aggressive, women are not. We simply do not associate violence with women. That's why we don't see much. "

Women tend to commit social violence: swearing, belittling and stalking

In addition, there is a stigma on male victimization. Men are tough when they get into a fight with another man, but not when they are abused by a woman.

The violent behavior of men is often accompanied by a biological explanation. Unlike women, they would have more testosterone and therefore fight more often.

Althoff think there is a more logical explanation. According to her, it has more to do with how we look at gender and what the social expectations are about men and women. ,, Boys learn from a young age that they have to defend themselves physically, while girls learn to be articulate. As a man you will therefore hit earlier, as a woman you will run away earlier. Not because you have more or less testosterone, but because you learned it that way and it is part of your gender identity. "

That may also explain why men and women are guilty of various types of violence. "Men commit physical and sexual violence more often. Women are more likely to commit indirect and social violence. They stalk, belittle and swear. But it can also manifest itself in gossip, which can be psychological abuse in extreme form. ”

In summary, what Althoff calls "male violence" is recognizable as toxic masculinity. And what she terms as "female violence" is toxic femininity.

Edit: "Internalized misogyny" is more about women who believe in things that supposedly undermine women's position in the overall societal hierarchy. It does not really look at ways in which women assert dominance over others, especially not men, since feminism does not tend to recognize that women can seek to dominate men.

[–]thereslcjg2000left-wing male advocate 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]plitox_is_a_bitch 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

To be fair, the feminists I've spoken to don't think that. They think the men mostly wanting sex thing (insofar it exists) is completely due to socialization.

Also, it is actually a thing that some guys are obsessed with their romantic partner having as low of an "n count" as possible even if they themselves have slept around a lot. This only goes for romantic prospects though, these guys will sleep with so-called "sluts" while having a low opinion of them. This is a double standard that really exists.

However, I do think feminists greatly downplay the role other women play in slutshaming. It is a real strategy that some women use to discredit other women. And there have been anthropological studies (look up Roy Baumeister) that seem to show that strategies to restrict or repress female sexuality are often (even predominantly) performed by other women. There are many theories trying to make sense of this, but one of them is that it seems to be done in part to "drive up the price of sex", if you will. If a woman sees another woman "giving it up" too easily (for example, dressing in a revealing and appetizing way that gets her positive male attention) she will attack her because she doesn't want to "compete" in that way, and therefore she chooses to torpedo her rival's reputation instead. But the Baumeister paper explains it better and in a more nuanced way than I can. It makes a compelling case that Male slutshaming is overstated and that many men actually prefer women who show signs of demonstrably enjoying sex a great deal, while showing how women have historically been involved in (and played a huge role in) practises like FGM that are used as a deterrent of female sexual pleasure.

Sex-positive feminism is actually a quite interesting development in that it advocates for women to be as sexual as they want to. Large parts of feminism either criticized these women for pandering to the male gaze, sleeping with the enemy, or making things worse for other women by making men feel more "entitled". Either that, or they write off these women as victims of internalized misogyny.

Edit: this can be illustrated by something I saw in the post history of one GenderCritical user who had wandered into LWMA to start trouble. I found a thread where she replied to a woman who described how much she enjoys giving her boyfriend a blowjob after he cooks for her, because he's a professional chef and she is turned on by his cooking skills. The GC user replied to the effect of "Aw honey, it's 2020. You should really respect yourself more than that and stop acting like a prostitute." Basically going around on Reddit calling random women "whores" because they enjoy sex with their partners. It's so funny to me how indistinguishable radfems can be from incels.

[–]thereslcjg2000left-wing male advocate 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Also, it is actually a thing that some guys are obsessed with their romantic partner having as low of an "n count" as possible even if they themselves have slept around a lot. This only goes for romantic prospects though, these guys will sleep with so-called "sluts" while having a low opinion of them. This is a double standard that really exists.

That’s definitely a double standard that exists. That said, if I am ever to date, I would prefer a woman who hasn’t had many partners because I’m asexual, and I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship where sex has to be regular. I’d want to have strong emotional commitment over all else. Having a lot of partners implies to me someone who a) highly prioritizes sex, and b) doesn’t necessarily see strong emotional commitment as especially important. I don’t look down on such women at all, or see them as lesser than others; I simply would be a little cautious about dating them because they engage in behaviors that are likely incompatible with my expectations. There are valid reasons to be more attracted to less experienced women, much as some feminists like to deny it.

As a side note I’d agree that most feminists don’t think that men naturally are pigs who desire sex over all else. I’ve definitely talked to some who do, though. Hell, it’s not to hard to find tweets with that sentiment. I particularly witnessed a lot of feminist women complaining about how practically all men are sex-obsessed in the aftermath of the MeToo movement.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Strikester101 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mtcapri 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ClementineCarson 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rose_Scythe 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mtcapri 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sewblon 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

We look to the dude in the theater who cannot seem to sit without an invisible yardstick between his knees as though he were the one who invented dick-and-balls-based insecurity.

When you are overweight, and have testicles, that is the most comfortable way to sit. Your testicles and inner-thighs have to go somewhere.

The problem with concepts like toxic masculinity and toxic feminity is that they are idealist. They both assert that the ultimate cause of the problem is certain ideas floating around in the zeitgeist. That kind of schema doesn't work because it is economic factors that dictate cultural factors, not the other way around. You can find a more detailed treatment of the subject here: https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Culture-Genuine-Natural-Societies/dp/184718619X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+Myth+of+Culture+why+we+need+a+genuine+natural+science+of+societies&qid=1580008942&sr=8-1

[–]ConnorGracie 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link