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ikhwan_arif
[–]Beerbeer00735 points36 points37 points 7 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
most of the time, as in 80% there's always a 10% exceptions on each side of the curve
[–]Sir_manalot15 points16 points17 points 7 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
Even then, with time they would of just become good men if society rewarded good men.
Just like how most good men are eventually becoming bad boys because that is what society wants.
Men start off one way and then become whatever works the best in the end.
Just imagine what the world was like if we rewarded good men, instead of bad boys...would probably be the utopian society everyone says they want (but does everything to make life worse in the end).
[+][deleted] 7 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
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[–]Sir_manalot14 points15 points16 points 7 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
If you work hard because you are rewarded to do so, are you really a hard worker?
There is a difference between a person being good to get rewarded and a person becoming bad because he is tired of being treated like trash.
And even disregarding that, would you prefer people to fake being assholes to get rewarded or fake being good people to get rewarded?
We are not entitled to good men and thus should act accordingly if we do not want men to be assholes...not reward assholes and say that good men shouldn't be rewarded for being good, but punished.
[–]BludgeonVIII4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
This is actually an interesting dilemma, cuz I often find myself questioning the intent behind some of my "good deeds" as well.
I think a good person can do good things while still expecting some form of reward, but they have to understand the moral implications behind the good deed and be prepared to perform the good deed without expecting a reward when the time comes. This, unfortunately, is very hard to observe and measure on an empirical level.
Edit: Actually, I think the more important thing is that a good person shouldn't be demonized for their good deeds.
But alas, the society in which we live in often does so with extreme prejudice.
[–]Sir_manalot3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
All of us have some degree of selfishness in all of our actions.
Which doesn't mean that it is bad or that we cannot do selfless things.
Especially since being selfish allows us to gather more things to give out selflessly in the end anyway.
But that we cannot expect/demand others to be good or sacrifice for us when we give close to zero for it (especially since we punish it now).
People are quick to tell good men that they are not entitled to anything for being good, but are even quicker to demand men to be good for there sake.
Which is why it is important to ask these questions.
For if we want good men, we must be good back and reward good men for being good.
Else we are just being hypocrites.
This is how our society became strong in the first place anyway. I help you, you help me and we both end up better off.
Doesn't mean we should give nice men a chance at banging 9/10 women for doing a good dead, but giving a good man better opportunities to get better jobs or push virgn tradthots to chase him over deadbeat who has five other kids? That would quickly make everyone's lives better and be the good thing to do anyway.
[–]BludgeonVIII3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Aye, I think you were able to describe what I was thinking more clearly.
[+][deleted] 7 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]Sir_manalot5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
"I personally think no, if I only work hard for the reward that means I am nothing, I'm just selling out for the reward. If I work hard because I enjoy to do so however, or because I intend to better myself I'm adding value to my character/personality and integrity, which imo is much more valuable."
I see, an interesting perspective. But would you work hard if there was no reward? Say a socialist system that indirectly punishes you for working hard by giving you nothing in exchange?
Would a man whom stops working hard because he was punished for working hard be lazy?
That is the issue I am getting at. Good men shouldn't be good just to get paid, but it is our duty as a society to reward good men if we want men to be good. And obviously our society isn't doing that right now.
We use to give good men the girl they wanted, better training, respect and better job opportunities as a reward for being good. Not because people should be good to get paid, but because we need to give in order to receive what we want.
And rewarding good men is the best outcome for everyone involved and encourages good men to become good and convinces deliquents to try to be good.
By not doing anything to reward good men at all, we are essentially saying that we do not want good men.
And thus good men will eventually realize that they are not entitled to anything for being good nor is it wanted, so men will stop being good and become whatever sociy wants instead.
"Surely there is another option out there. I don't prefer fake people at all."
There will always be a degree of fakeness in people for the sake of upkeeping an image and creating a sense of unity in a society. Just consider common courtesy as an example of this. Where we treat people we may dislike and disrespect with respect and kindness in order to breed unity amoung a culture.
"We aren't entitled to good men, I agree and we should act accordingly, but that doesn't mean we have to punish/reward assholes or good people for that matter. I think we need to change our societal mindset to that of teaching and learning if reallt want to make a change."
Yes and no, humans respond to incentivizes and what works. If we kept things neutral, assholes would be assholes and kind men would be kind men. But things are never truly in balance like that.
And because women are naturally attracted to assholes, we need to incentivize good men just to counter this aspect of our nature.
If we want good men ofc.
[+][deleted] 7 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Sir_manalot2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I am going to cut out a bit to try to stay on topic
<And look how that worked out. We're sitting in the after effects of that behaviour and it isn't exactly looking pretty. It's certainly the 'best' for now, but we can certainly do better.>
That isn't true. Societies progress when we give good men the girls they want and regress when we allow women to pick the partners they want. Sex and Culture by Unwin notes this.
The reasons things have become so bad is that we have allowed women to pick there partners, which has caused millenial men to grow up without good male role models.
And those men are not awful because they are nice/good, they are dependent, unconfident and weak. Which is partly because nice/good men are not treated right, so they grow up insecure, while punks are absolutely full of themselves do to all the love, sex and attention they receive.
<That's already the case. That's why I posted my original comment saying: "But if you act good because you are rewarded to do so, is it really good?"
Some guys drop their nice guy pretense so easily it makes me wonder what they were doing it for to begin with. If the reward wasn't there, there would also be no pretense (People faking goodness for rewards) and we could actually adress the core of the issues.>
The issue with that is the other way is also true. Alot of good men are faking bad assery because it gets them more.
And I would say that is far more common due to all the talk of male toxicity and the like.
Those people who fake being nice (not the ones frustrated and getting angry from repeated mistreatment) are just doing what women say they want, they then usually become absolute assholes when they realize that is what women really want (which they are also faking).
Aka, they would be fake no matter what we incentivized or did really.
<I do agree with common courtesy, but there is a fine line where it becomes a form of self-deceit and people often seem to miss that. Some people will bury their true feeling for example to keep the peace, but this isn't a very healthy frame of mind and it's not beneficial to any of the parties involved>
This is true.
<I think the incentive would change from material rewards to spiritual and moral ones. At least, that's the ideal. If you don't need to fight over any recources anymore, including women, there would really be no need to be an asshole.>
This would be ideal. The modern issue is that good men are starved of sex (and to lesser degree resources), which is why we have all these try hard assholes these days.
If we just gave good men sex (not all the sex they want, but sex on a frequent basis equal to what they are worth) and denyed assholes all the sex they get now (just look at all the abused children and single mothers). The issues society faces would largely go away.
<How does incentivizing good men help with countering that aspect of out nature? This argument doesn't make sense to me at all. It's like you're saying good men can only be good if they get a sexual mate for it, or at least a compensation of some kind. Correct me if I'm wrong.
And imo, for good men, doing good is incentive enough, if it wasn't, they wouldn't exactly be good to begin with. Do you think someone who forgives someone else thinks about any form of reward? How about someone who is kind or compassionate?
I think not.>
I have to disagree with you here. Saying doing good is it's only reward is fine, but we are at the point where society is starting to suffer from having to many bad boys and people are asking "where did all the good men/workers/etc?" go.
The question isn't, "Do you think someone who forgives someone else thinks about any form of reward?".
It's "Do you think someone who is constantly getting hurt from being kind wants justice, compensation or karma?"
There are limits to things. If we hurt someone and say sorry once, that is fine.
But if we keep on hurting and taking advantage of someone who is kind over and over again, sorry isn't going to cut it anymore.
People have only so much to give and we are talking about good men having to work ten plus years to get anything while they watch assholes get everything they want for free.
It is like taking a kind loving dog and abusing it in some form (starving it, mistreating it, emotionally abusing it). Eventually, every dog will break and begin to lash out at the abuser. Some will just take longer then others.
With enough care, the dog can become kind again. But the dog wasn't good to get things selfishly because it lasehed out, but because it couldn't get what it wanted from being good period.
And society has pushed things way to far and the result will be good men slowly disappearing from society. Which is fine if people do not want good men/fathers/etc.
But it is the easy to observe result.
[+][deleted] 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Sir_manalot2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
You keep saying we give good men the girls, but this sounds very weird to me. They're not objects to be given, rather they are human beings that can make their own decisions. (Even though most of them right now are uninformed/poor ones)
Yes and no. Women tend to make poor choices in regards to mates (even they later regret it) and ultimately try to find a way to make someone make the decisions for them anyway (like import Muslims and become muslim so the man can make the decisions since western men can't)
It is why arranged marriages end up happier in the end, because humans are bad at picking the best mate for them, especially when young.
This isn't wrong though imo. Those 'punks' who act that way usually end up miserable in the end and the women that have been with them as well. They just played themselves by investing in the wrong things. In the end the good man will have a lot more to offer. (If of course he didn't succumb)
This isn't wrong though imo. Those 'punks' who act that way usually end up miserable in the end and the women that have been with them as well. They just played themselves by investing in the wrong things.
In the end the good man will have a lot more to offer. (If of course he didn't succumb)
This isn't true. The nice guy finishes last meme is said a lot for a reason.
As sometimes it ends up that way, sometimes it doesn't.
Good men, yet they lie and decieve. Doesn't add up.
You are being way to binary. If a bad person does something good or fakes being good to get what he wants, that doesn't make him/her good.
As good people do bad things and bad people do good things.
What you are essentially saying indirectly is that a naturally good person has to be perfect and that if a naturally good person does anything bad, then he was always bad and just faking it.
Plenty of good men fake being bad to protect themselves and get what they want.
Think of the stereotypical rough cynical old man with a kind heart. One who will talk shit about his wife and it looks like he is treating her like shit on the surface...but on closer inspection he is sacrificing everything for her because he loves her and wants to make her happy at all costs.
A man who wants to be good, but doesn't want to be treated like shit for being good and is bitter for it.
The problem lies not in being denied, but in having your self worth rely on those rewards. Only then does the denial become painful and only then do we feel the need to lash out. Our expectations aren't met so we get upset. But as conscious being we have the ability to adjust our expectations and be happy regardless of them. Monks are usually good men, who are also being denied yet I don't see them biting at all.
The problem lies not in being denied, but in having your self worth rely on those rewards. Only then does the denial become painful and only then do we feel the need to lash out. Our expectations aren't met so we get upset. But as conscious being we have the ability to adjust our expectations and be happy regardless of them.
Monks are usually good men, who are also being denied yet I don't see them biting at all.
There are plenty of instances of Buddist monks biting throughout history (along with every other group of peace lovers).
https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/myanmar-proves-buddhist-doesnt-necessarily-mean-peaceful/amp/
Here is a random source on it. I could go more in depth myself about it, but I am no expert on the subject at all and probably would.get something's wrong.
The thing with being good is that there are limits to it.
[–]teslaistheshit1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
bell curve you say?
[–]Beerbeer0070 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
yes sir thanks for giving the accurate term
[–]boy_named_su0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
50% of the time, it works every time
[–]hrm089427 points28 points29 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yep. I used to be the nicest guy on the planet. Would do favors for both men and women just because I wanted to do a good deed. Too bad people take that for weakness and try to milk you for everything you got. Now I don't do favors unless I get something in return first. Sucks but it is what it is.
[–]grizzer993 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
In the same boat man. I got tired of all the bullshit. Also got cheated on so I'm done being a nice guy. It doesn't get you anywhere anymore
[–]grumetito3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Me too, you are not alone bro... Mgtow grown everiday!!
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Would do favors for both men and women just because I wanted to do a good deed. [...] Now I don't do favors unless I get something in return first.
I can so very much relate to this.
[+][deleted] 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sadly this the only way to go. Took me decades to learn that lesson... but hey, better late than never.
[–]RobinHood411 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Also, to make it clear, I am not an asshole for no reason and still treat people well, but no more freebies and chance of me taking crap from others.
Yeah this describes me as well.
[–]writefromwork16 points17 points18 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Better to be an asshole than a cuck or simp.
[–]moneysubber 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
This is a bit too /r/iamverybadass for my liking to be honest.
You don't have to be an asshole to do what you want.
[–]drunkentwitch113 points14 points15 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I think the idea is that most men start off as good guys but get fucked over many times so they turn into assholes.
[–]ApeGoesBananas13 points14 points15 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
While the pic looks like something an edgy teenager would put on instagram, it does have some truth to it. I've had this kind of downfall myself and people can definitely turn a nice person into a jerk.
[–]jamocadyn4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If you've ever listened to divorced women/THOTs when they discuss an ex...It would appear that ALL of these ex-boyfriends/husbands are "assholes" (the females' words not mine)--and one is led to believe that all these women were the epitome of a "loving and supportive wife/girlfriend".
[–]Sir_manalot8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Yes, you do.
If you want to be with a good women, reach your full potential or not get treated like shit, you have to be an assholes.
Obviously you can just accept getting less then assholes do (like getting post wall women exclusively, just stay in a low tier job, etc), but if you want the best life you can get, you HAVE to become an asshole.
You can also go mgtow and damage control the costs of being good (which is why I initially started doing it), but you still end up being treated like shit until you stop being good.
They even have scientific studies that agreeable men earn less and dark triad men earn more.
Exceptions? Ofc, some people are born so rich that it doesn't matter what they are, some men are so sexy that they can do whatever they want and be cool, etc. But that is more the fact that they have something else that allows them to be kind, a cushion that protects them enough to not be fucked over for being good.
And some men are just lucky ofc.
But for 80+ percent of us (even being in the the top 20% doesn't save you here really)? Good men just get fucked over until they stop being good men and then get everything they wanted because they stopped being a good man.
I mean, it is how I lost my virignity (I was apparently "too nice" and "husband material, not dating material'). Aka I quit college, became a deadbeat and had sex over a hundred times with different women within three months. Many of my old friends at first hated what I became, but they now answer me when I call them and actually care about me.
I didn't grow a six pack and I was poorer then ever, but I was swarmed with love and respect for being a piece of shit.
Why did that happen?
Because society doesn't want good men, they say they do...but they say alot of things.
Edit: Downvoting me doesn't make me wrong.
[–]moneysubber -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Agreeable and asshole are not antonyms.
You can be perfectly pleasant but firm and assertive. You're mixing up the two where they don't need to be mixed.
[–]Sir_manalot1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ok, I can see someone thinking ans concluding that.
But that doesn't change my overall point at all.
[–]ikhwan_arif[S] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's not saying it's okay to be an asshole, it's saying that sometimes people act like assholes when they've gone through shit, and that's understandable.
[–]Lakusas1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It doen't matter how kind or good you are, if you do what women want, you are an asshole
[–]pullancur4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well at age 36 I had a revelation that apologies are just for idiots. Most regret getting caught not the deed. So I never apologize anymore for almost anything. Especially when are demanded
[–]DocZTheRockstar 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Can slowly feel that turning into me.
[–]rajknowsyou2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
amen
[–]Astral-Projector2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
what is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
[–]AntiAbleism2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Better than being #metooed for saying hi to a woman.
[–]DreadPirateRosco2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Ha ha my friends at work are joking with me about how I'm actually an asshole. It was taken as a compliment and I'm pretty sure it was meant as one believe it or not. I think a lot of times people are considered assholes simply for standing up for themselves. I think it can mean 'not a pussy'.
[–]ikhwan_arif[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think a lot of times people are considered assholes simply for standing up for themselves
Women always do this when they lose an argument.
[–]Harrybud071 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
i am only an asshole to females post divorce.
[–]andrewpipes0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Poor babies!
[–]KushKenobi-1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Dunno bout that, I know plenty of dickweeds that have never been kind, or at least acceptionally kind. There are obliviously selfish people who will never cater because they think they're better than you no matter who you are. quit making up some philosophy excusing retards from acting retarded. It's getting old
[–]ikhwan_arif[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
There are no absolutes. That's why I titled it relatable, because it relates to me, and I'm fairly certain it is relatable to others as well.
If it doesn't relate to you, that's not my problem is it? Anyways, chill.
[–]Sir_manalot2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ignore him/her.
People hate this truth being said and go to great lengths to try to make it look like it isn't true.
As people are naturally anti-responsibility and saying good men go bad because society loves bad men means that it is societies fault that toxicity is so rampant these days.
So they tend to get incredibly agressive when someone says this truth.
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