I see a lot of rhetoric from various MGTOW about how they're going to retire at 40 or otherwise retire early. This is a fine goal, but I couldn't imagine being retired for long without getting bored and ultimately stumbling into a new activity/hobby which -incidentally- generates an income. In a sense, my life is at least partially my labor and my labor is a part of my identity. I say this in spite of an awareness of disposability concerns surrounding male labor. If it were the case that I was a manual-laborer, clerk, etc. I may come to associate my work with 'junk experiences' and develop a strong desire for escape from the monotony through retirement. The main distinction is that my work involves a low quantity of disposable 'junk' experiences relative to the 'quality' experiences that overlap with my interests/actualization goals.
My feeling is that an excessive desire for retirement is symptomatic of an unhealthy relationship between the individual and his labor. If the worker cherished his craft as an expression of his identity or if he was able to align his interests/actualization goals with something that incidentally earns an income, he would not likely yearn for retirement.
For me, the ideal scenario is that a man not have his 'craft' co-opted by social or biological imperatives such that he not develop an inauthentic or 'junk' labor identity that works against his sense of fulfilment/actualization. In the general case, this means ignoring maladaptive (potentially lucrative) arrangements that work against this ideal identity and seeking growth opportunities irrespective of other factors like compensation.
Once this ideal identity has been realized, a MGTOW may do well to seek out contract work and parlay this experience into entrepreneurship; alternatively, he may choose to broker his skills at a premium over a limited number of contracts every year and enjoy ample free time to further pursue his interests. When you arrive at this ideal professional form, retirement becomes less relevant as you can earn more than enough to live comfortably off of by reproducing and adapting prior work over a quasi-stressful few months per year (doing the kind of stuff you would pursue on your own without compensation anyway). There is also a tendency to spend excessively on novel experiences and toys as opposed to accumulating tons of money in a savings/retirement account. Anxiety over scarcity evaporates and life becomes more about the experience itself rather than the number value you can assign to your various accounts.
What does the rest of r/MGTOW think of this idea of a 'healthy/authentic' labor identity? What about this idea of a definite retirement vs working a limited number of contracts over the course of one's life?
[+][deleted] [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link
Coming at this from the other side. Retired in my mid-forties. Was engineer. Loved my work, at least when I was young engineer crunching numbers and building things. It's never that simple though. There are always people issues in any social organization, because it's full of people. I worked with the best and I worked with the worst. The worst made me age in dog years. Also my employers were always pushing me into project management instead of hands-on. The last half of my career was joyless paper pushing.
You don't constantly job hop (generally) in engineering. You're paid what you're paid because you have not only education, but also experience in that specialized technical area.
Now it's been several years since I punched out and I can honestly say it's been the happiest time of my life. Just getting eight hours of sleep is a miracle after decades of work. No stress, no commute, no driving in bad weather even if I don't want to. No people issues. Plenty of money for travel, hobbies, sports. :)
[+][deleted] [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
THIS. Very much this.
Also, you failed to mention what (in my experience) was a dramatic WORSENING of the "people issues" as all of the various feminist & other so called "diversity" bullshit became increasingly pervasive.
I got VERY sick and tired of personally doing "the work of 5 men" (and/or 10+ women) and really not getting any appropriate credit or compensation for it; worse was that the 'bargain' I was providing to my employers via that, was invariably used to actually hire/pay (and even promote/reward) those extra 5 men and 10+ women to sit around and engage in (at best) inane nonsense, and (at worst) things that so fusterclucked everything that it cause ME (personally) more work to "fix".
Fuck that shit.
Nowadays I do similar "work" in terms of the actual projects -- but I do it on MY terms: and generally that means ZERO interactions with "brainless bimbos" (male OR female), and in terms of my compensation, well I "officially" charge about 5x what I used to be paid an hour in salary (if you look at it only in terms of a standard 40 hour week, 48 weeks a year), but in reality I'm actually making more like 10x that, because I bill on partial hours, I no longer engage in any "unpaid" commuting time (and ZERO unpaid "overtime"), etc. Plus, since I do minimal total work per year, my "cost/loss" to taxes has dramatically dropped.
THIS is my experience too. And I highlighted that "No stress" -- because in my own case that was one of the critical changes. The last salaried job I was at, well I had a rather LARGE amount of "stress", stress that was reflected in my heart rate & blood pressure (having to work & deal with ID10T's tends to do that to you). After I left, and went on to a consulting basis... within 3 months my heart rate and blood pressure all went back to "ideal" levels (and with NO medications or even really any changes in anything else).
That part deserves more consideration as well. I really never fully comprehended just what that "daily commute" was costing me -- both in literal dollars & cents, as well as extra-effort, etc.
I had a relatively normal commute (even "easy" in some ways since it was a rural, low traffic route but still almost entirely main "state highways") of a little over 1/2 hour, and about 30 miles each way (so ~1 hour & 60 miles per day). While I was doing it, I tended to think of the "cost" as being only mainly the gas and the time.
AFTER I "retired" to consulting/working from home, I realized that the IRS standard of 55 cents a mile is actually a HELLUVA lot more accurate. My commute then -- even just for 5 days a week X 48 weeks a year (not counting the occasional Saturday, or side-trips out to lunch, after work, etc) -- ended up being ~14,400 miles at year, @ $0.55 per mile that was costing me basically $8,000 a year... and then of course that was from my NET income (after tax) because unlike "contractors/consultants" who CAN deduct mileage, "employees" cannot. So in order to PAY for that $8k in extra expense (and compensate for the additional income & payroll tax the higher income created), I need to be making about 50% MORE than that $8k, in other words about $12k of my GROSS income was being expended to "support" that commute cost.
And of course commuting adds OTHER "incidental" costs -- the fact that because you're running late some mornings, you grab a coffee & donut at the quickie mart while you refill the car gas -- or you pop out to lunch, buy snacks, or after work (in part to alleviate the stress/tedium) you stop off and "shop" for things you probably don't really need, etc.
Or, as you noted the "bad weather" factor -- which in my case meant in winter ANYTIME it snowed I needed to get my ass out and snow-blow the driveway; it was "not an option" and couldn't be delayed, you NEEDED to do it ASAP in the morning, and possibly again when you got home in the evening (and then maybe even yet again the following morning) -- because you HAD to be able to get out & back in for "work".
Now... I really no longer give a shit. There's no critical NEED to get up at 5 AM to snow-blow the damned driveway before work; nor to do it again at 6PM at night. I can do it any time I want (or in fact just ignore it altogether ... because with two 4x4 vehicles and only an occasional need to leave for a grocery or tobacco or beer run {i.e. I'm not driving in & out everyday, so I'm not packing the snow into ice on the drive} which is maybe once every 2 to 4 weeks) well I really don't HAVE to be concerned.
And of course I no longer have to travel snow & ice-covered roads, nor even during rain or fog, etc -- I can pick and choose when I want to go somewhere (and thus entirely avoid travel in bad weather) -- so there is a major "life-risk-reduction" in terms of potential/statistical probability of accidents.
--
Moreover, any trips into town to go shopping -- well they can be planned and "optimized" in a number of ways -- which reduces impulse buying, and also means I can shop during times of the day & week when the stores are basically EMPTY of other people (no long lines at the checkout, etc).
[+][deleted] [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
This guy gets it. Upvoted.
MGTOWs, be as thrifty as you can be and retire as young as you can. Investing your savings ain't as complicated as "they" want you to think. Google "lazy portfolios". Be awesome. Be happy. :)
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