Am I missing the point?

AnnArchist · 2011-11-09T14:57:00+00:00

a lot of attention paid to examples of women doing horrible things to men,

Its attention to their non-punishment. They are punished like minors rather than as adults, as equals.

What I don't see Conversations and debates about masculinity, society and what it means to be a man.

What it means to be a man is up to the user. To me, its to be strong, smart, competitive, aggressive, etc. To others its being a good father. To others its being a good husband.

It varies person to person and none of them are wrong.

InfinitelyThirsting · 2011-11-09T14:56:47+00:00

It goes through waves. There will be periods where it's posts I don't care about (women behaving badly), and periods where it's full of anti-circumcision posts or domestic violence stats or anti-false accusation stuff (which I'm all for posting, but it's like preaching to the choir so those no longer interest me as much), and then also periods full of novel discussion and debate. Always with a sprinkling of informative things I would not have been aware of elsewhere. If you're not into what's there now, just wait a bit.

2011-11-09T14:51:33+00:00

The focus here is more on rights (for example: child custody, standard of evidence with respect to rape accusations, discrimination, etc.) than gender roles.

If anything, most (not all) people here reject gender roles and gender-based expectations in general. (You will find some mention of the expectation of "manning up" (and putting up with unfairness without complaint) etc.)

Alanna · 2011-11-09T20:29:18+00:00

Less anti-feminist conversations on men's rights: /r/masculism

Discussion about masculinity and what it means to be a man: /r/oney

/r/MensRights is both these things, don't get me wrong, but people are usually led to men's rights through personal experience, so they tend to be outspoken and often emotional in their support. To be blunt, there's a lot of justifiably angry guys here.

I'm a woman, and I support men's rights. The anti-feminist sentiment is caused by feminism claiming to be a movement for gender equality, when in fact it is a movement for the benefit of women, and approaches gender relations from the perspective of male-oppressor/female-oppressed. We find this an incomplete and misleading paradigm (at best), for a number of reasons, which are too long to go into here. But the result is that a number of issues become gendered in a counterproductive way.

A good example, and one that is brought up often here, is domestic violence. Domestic violence is widely regarded as crime perpetrated by brutish, violent men on subjugated, oppressed, beaten down women. This is how it is portrayed, both through popular media and through the agencies tasked with supporting victims and ending abuse. What is less talked about are the many studies (including this 2007 study from Harvard) that show that about half of intimate partner violence is reciprocal-- partners abusing each other-- and in the other half, women initiate violence more often than men. But yet, due to feminist pressure to maintain the ideology that women, as a group, are victims of oppression by men, the Duluth model is still used by the government as the textbook model for handling domestic abuse.

white_cloud · 2011-11-09T17:52:47+00:00

What I don't see Conversations and debates about masculinity, society and what it means to be a man. Discussions about real problems men face and the pressures our culture puts on them. Questions about how we can improve these problems Am I way off base here I honestly want to know.

Yes, you are off-base. Discussions about real problems men face are probably the majority of what this subreddit discusses. A few days ago the main submissions were self-posts by men who are going through paternity issues, child custody issues, and men being harmed by abusive ex-girlfriends/wives. Did you happen to miss the post by the guy who offered to purchase paternity kits for men who can't afford it? That was a main post a few days ago here.

We also discuss and oppose male genital mutilation. That is most certainly "a problem that real men face". We discuss divorce issues, which negatively affect men more than women. We discuss selective service, which only targets men. We discuss discrimination against men in college environments (the attendance disparity between men and women, eroding of due process rights for men accused of rape, the Dear Colleague letter). We discuss false rape accusations against men. We discuss regular episodes of misandry in our culture, like the women on the talk show "The Talk" saying that it was "fabulous" when an innocent man had his penis severed and put in a garbage disposal (that woman is still on the air cackling away every fucking day on that show, a man would have lost his job for saying that about a woman).

In short, the majority of what we do here is discuss problems that real men face. That's what this subreddit is about. That's what men's rights is about.

If I may be so blunt, I have seen your kind before. You are the kind who is quite frankly ignorant of men's rights issues, as you have not spent the time and effort that some of us have to educate ourselves about these issues. You come in here with some vague notion, probably derived from a feminist-inspired source, about how men have problems due to "masculinity, society, what it means to be a man, and the pressures that our culture puts on men" (your words). I've seen it before. In your shallow understanding of the problems faced by men, you cannot yet see beyond these mere buzzwords into the deeper, much deeper problems that males face (the things I mentioned before).

The reason why you don't see lengthy discussions about masculinity and what it means to be a man is because on the list of things affecting men in this culture, those are minor issues. The major problems are our culture's widespread support of male genital mutilation, the eroding of due process rights for men accused of rape, women initiating the majority of divorces, men having to fight for shared custody after they are divorced, the disparity in funding for diseases that target males, the vilification of males and men in our culture (check the new TV season, it's filled with anti-male messages).

We don't have time to engage in lofty discussions about what it means to be a man in society. When they are hacking at the dicks of male babies, hacking at the dicks of innocent adult males and laughing about it on TV, kicking men out of college on unfounded (even illegal in some cases) allegations, creating a 40% male/60% female college environment even while they continue to claim that this is evidence of "male privilege", we don't want to talk about "masculinity and society". It's sophistry in the face of all that is going on. The appropriate attitude to approach this subreddit with (and all men's rights sites) is one of raging fucking anger at the real injustices being done to men in this society. We are the .01% that gives a shit.

smartsenior · 2011-11-09T14:54:46+00:00

Your post looks like concern trolling to me. I would agree to the extend that too many posts here are about glamourizing male victimhood and pointing fingers at femnazis.

However, getting behind the ideology and becoming aware of the fact how fucked men sometimes are in society lays groundwork to discuss a more 'positive' approach to male identity.

This is the internet. Start the conversations you want to have.

2011-11-09T15:22:33+00:00

What I don't see ...

It's an open forum dude. Let's hear your thoughts!

carchamp1 · 2011-11-09T16:31:57+00:00

If you're not seeing solid discussions about real problems men face, etc. here I don't know what to tell you. They ARE here. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of them if you take the time to scroll through the historical record. Sure, you need to filter through the trolls, anger, and occasional clutter, but you can't tell me there's not a ton of good material here.

And, btw, discussions on feminism are indeed worthwhile and meaningful. Modern activist feminism is at least partly responsible for our prevailing anti-male culture and legal system. Do you suggest we ignore it?

2011-11-09T18:29:31+00:00

The internet lives on political incorrectness. Feminism is a fairly easy target in all of it's shorcomings and obvious double-standards advocated in the name.

As far as for the constructive dialogue; there is apparently something of a consensus regarding on what is fucked up and what should be done in the (at least in the US-centric one) manosphere. That has not evolved much during the last few years. Kind of a pity, but predictable. MRM did not evolve yesterday, you know. Now it's mainly about making noise and collecting confirming data-points of the stuff we already know and agree upon.

It's starting to create a fair rim for entry, though. No matter how easy we try to make it, going through the sidebar is not an easy task. And when people hop-in and would like to take the humane way in (by asking stuff), all the answers given are ones chewed through and repeated for hundred of times during the years.

As MRM is currently pushing into mainstream (where the ideological feminism and a bunch of other -isms is the norm), just shooting with anti-feminism (no matter how accurate and justificated) probably ain't the best way to deal with cognitive dissonance. After all, the early adopters tended to be people already fed up with feminism (by experience, conservative views, outright chauvinism or just by through thinking) or folks just estranging themselves from -isms and curious about new ideas.

I think we are having a bit of a scaling issue. I don't think Men's rights should be affiliated with men's lifestyle, manliness, man's life or possibly even anti-feminism (there's definitely a lot of wrong with the current execution of feminism in other ways than just regarding the issue raw deal for boys in modern society). But right now the (legal) rights part (and the seduction-community) seems to be the prime common factor cultivating man's issues and male identity within the internet. It's a big posse where everything is being talked about, but some noises (anti-feminism) are louder than others.

The stuff you are looking for is there, but it often gets lost in the noise and have often been discussed through already. Concern trolling aside, I think it's a problem when pushing mainstream.

Alanna · 2011-11-09T15:10:51+00:00

I don't see Conversations and debates about masculinity, society and what it means to be a man.

That's what I'm here to discuss.

What I see in this subreddit is mostly anti-feminist sentiment and people who feel threatened by the feminist movement.

There are a lot of different and conflicting opinions about feminism here. There are traditionalists who would like to reject feminism and return to traditional values. There are liberals who embrace change, but feel it hasn't been accomplished fairly, with women enjoying a great expansion of roles and rights without a corresponding expansion of responsibilities, and men still constrained in many ways to traditional roles and responsibilities. There are those who view feminists as the implacable enemy, and those who view feminists as potential allies.

girlwriteswhat · 2011-11-09T19:09:19+00:00

The only criteria necessary to being a good man is to be fair and honest in your dealings with others, and do your best to be self-sufficient, and be accountable for your actions. Pretty much all it takes to be a decent human being.

There is tremendous gendered expectation placed on men, and more extreme social and legal penalties when men step outside their little man-cage. But the legal and institutional disenfranchisements tend to take precedence here.

2011-11-09T15:06:37+00:00

Am I way off base here

Pretty much

drinkthebleach · 2011-11-09T19:22:24+00:00

A man is whatever he decides to be, same for a woman. We get into trouble when we start telling genders what to be. That's why. We focus more on our inequality and disadvantage with the law. Enjoy your stay.

NiceGuysSTFU · 2011-11-10T02:00:55+00:00

No. You're assessment is pretty spot-on, and why I only check in here sporadically, despite the fact that I care about the same issues MR purports to care about...

bannister4102 · 2011-11-09T15:42:58+00:00

[permanently deleted]

juliaskittyp · 2011-11-09T16:28:16+00:00

This should clear things up

Whisper · 2011-11-09T23:17:14+00:00

What I see in this subreddit is mostly anti-feminist sentiment and people who feel threatened by the feminist movement.

You've been infected with anti-male language.

"Feel threatened" is a phrase frequently used in the attempt to suggest that men are cowards for opposing something. In this case, you are appealing to the very traditional masculine virtues that feminism is undermining, in the attempt to get us to stop opposing feminism.

Doesn't that strike you as slightly ironic?

There also appears to be a lot of attention paid to examples of women doing horrible things to men

When someone doesn't believe a thing exists, what you do is find examples of it.

Our society thinks that women can do no wrong.

I don't see conversations and debates about masculinity, society and what it means to be a man.

I would like to see more of this myself. But the first thing we need to establish about masculinity is that it is "not inherently evil". So far, most of our efforts have been devoted to getting that point across.

Discussions about real problems men face and the pressures our culture puts on them.

Here you are viewing our movement through the lens that feminism ground and mounted for you. It was a feminist goal to be free of all external pressures and therefore free to whatever the hell they wanted.

As men, we are better than that. We are not spoiled children demanding free candy by twisting the meaning of the words "fair" and "equal". What we want is for masculine virtues and sacrifices to once again be honoured and rewarded. (Although possibly within a slightly different framework.)

In any society that works, there are roles for everyone, and all people have at least some duties. The desire to throw that off altogether, as feminists have expressed, is the desire to pull down and kick over the civilization we have spent thousands of years building (and then presumably to sit about in the ruins whining that they isn't any heat, clean water, organic produce, or yoga classes). Civilization came about, and continues to exist, because of the sacrifices made by men, and the burdens we carry. We do not desire to set them down... that way lies nothing. Instead, we desire to be rewarded and appreciated for carrying them.

The difference between a hero and a slave is what he receives for his efforts.

thingsarebad · 2011-11-09T19:28:36+00:00

See the following: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/m63q4/am_i_missing_the_point/c2ygxlc

bannister4102 · 2011-11-10T08:57:48+00:00

[permanently deleted]

thingsarebad · 2011-11-09T18:38:09+00:00

This sub-reddit is mostly just a place for people to vent, whine, complain, and post frivolous, sensational stories.

There are a few real MRAs here, and a few people who actually get the whole picture, and occasionally a few people here will help someone in need, but mostly this sub-reddit is full of people who don't actually want to solve the problems our society has but only wish to complain about them. There are actually a lot of people here with ideologies that run counter to men's rights, but they're never actually activists either, which isn't surprising.

If you're interested in discussions on masculinity and what it means to be a man, I'd check out the manosphere. Places like The Spearhead (though not as much lately), A Voice for Men, even In Malafide. There are a few people who know what they're talking about here in this sub-reddit, but most of them have moved on, and nobody really seems to care either. The sub-reddit is actually rather boring these days, with very little meaningful discussion.

Examples of articles on masculinity:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/avoiceformen/2011/09/14/what-makes-a-man-a-man

http://www.avoiceformen.com/2010/07/01/the-plague-of-modern-masculinity/

http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/elam-vs-frost-round-4/#comment-71927

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/10/the-%E2%80%9Ctough-guise%E2%80%9D-scam/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/22/here-come-the-herbivores/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/12/04/the-fragile-male-ego/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/12/06/alphas-male-hierarchy-and-the-form/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/21/there-is-no-honor-in-competition-with-women/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/06/mother-may-i-masculinity/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/02/25/delusions-of-masculinity-2/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/04/24/man-vs-%e2%80%9cperson%e2%80%9d/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/09/27/%e2%80%9creimagining-masculinity%e2%80%9d-and-the-macho-macho-murse/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/10/22/masculinity-is-not-a-fashion-trend/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/11/29/only-feminists-can-be-real-men/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/01/07/bastard-game/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/09/22/toward-a-core-set-of-principles-for-men/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/09/29/the-changing-tides-of-history/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/12/moving-forward-as-men/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/03/09/the-plague-of-modern-masculinity/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/07/20/end-game-the-beginning/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/09/05/zeta-game-hypergamy-crossroads/

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/09/24/violence-and-real-men/

There are a lot of other blogs that discuss this stuff, too. Follow blog links.

edit: Oh yes, false rape society is one of the few who actually does good work and posts here occasionally. There are others, but this reddit really is dominated by ignorant people.

edit2: http://mirrorofthesoul.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_archive.html#111177538268776386

2011-11-09T16:32:47+00:00

THANK YOU!

Title	Am I missing the point?
Author	bannister4102
Upvotes	7
Comments	54
Date	November 9, 2011 2:35 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/m63q4/am_i_missing_the_point/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/am-i-missing-the-point.1031931 https://theredarchive.com/post/1031931

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