Circumcision

ToyGunTerrorist · 2020-01-12T15:33:42+00:00

It's a question of bodily integrity. By and large most circumcisions don't result in any meaningful health issues or defect, but the principle of the matter is that it's someone electing to have a part of your body cut off without any meaningful medical cause, and the fact that in any other circumstance society would be enraged by the idea of it, but becasue circumcision is integrated into the cultural consciousness it gets a free pass.

If you cant work with circumcision for this argument, substitute your earlobes as the body part in question instead.

lookalikecloud · 2020-01-12T18:25:14+00:00

I’m Jewish and never thought twice about it for the first 25 years of my life. I grew up always hearing it’s just what Jews did and we need to preserve it because of the holocaust, it’s healthier anyways etc etc.

It’s true that you may have no conscious memory of the pain, no obvious detriment to sexual pleasure but it is undeniably an UNETHICAL procedure.

The procedure is an irreversible surgery on an infant. It is not done on an abnormal part of the body (like a cleft pallet) it is not done to save a life (like vaccines or any other surgery allowed on infants).
It is only done as a preventative measure for some very rarely occurring ailments. Girls are more likely to get uti and yet we recognize that antibiotics are sufficient for them. Boys are less likely to get uti, antibiotics are available to them too, but no instead let’s forever change a part of their body (which is so integral to their identity as a man) !?

There are surgery risks and the sensitivity of the penis is forever affected. It can always be done later if the actual person whose penis it is wants them, but can NEVER be undone.

Regarding the Jewish aspect, it was originally done for cleanliness reasons. Granted 3000 years ago in the desert with no running water and no antibiotics they might have seen a discernible improvement in quality of life. However , modern medicine , industrialization and ethics have rendered all of this moot.

Jews used to (and some still do) have the mohel suck the blood directly off the penis of the baby, because at the time it was healthier than leaving the wound “open”. This practice has been abandoned because it has been recognized as not healthier than other methods like gauze, and in fact carries the risk of transferring herpes to the baby!

So this integral part of the Brit mila process has been abandoned due to advances in understanding of science and health...why not the rest of the procedure for the exact same reason?

Some other interesting points:
- as long as the mother is Jewish, the child is Jewish. End of story.
- the child can get it done later and receive the full religious benefit.
- the punishment for not having it done is called “karet ”. This is the same exact punishment that one must receive for breaking kosher, breaking Shabbat , or being gay.
- if you’re ok with eating pepperoni pizza, flicking a light switch on saturdays, or accepting gay people then you should equally be ok with no Brit mila.
- also as someone who went to Jewish day school for 12 years, attended synagogue countless times, celebrates all the major holidays every year...NOT ONCE have I had to have my penis inspected to be included. I’ve never had visual confirmation of 99% of the Jewish men I’ve met in my life being circumcised.
- Jews used to own slaves.....we’ve stopped. - Jews used to practice animal sacrifice..... we’ve stopped.
- Jews used to consider breaking Shabbat betrayal of Judaism......it’s now considered a personal choice.
-Jews used to consider breaking kashrut betrayal of Judaism.....it’s now considered a personal choice.
Why not the same for Brit mila? There is more to Judaism than ones penis, and all are welcome.

Message me to talk further or if you have any follow up questions

Oncefa2 · 2020-01-12T15:41:37+00:00

You might be interested to know that many Jewish people argue circumcision is either unnecessary, or can be done as an adult.

The type of circumcision practiced now is not even the same type of circumcision that was practiced in the Tanakh. It changed sometime during the late Pharisaic / early Rabbinic era of Judaism. There is a lot more skin removed and the practice is ritualized in a way you don't find in the scripture.

PositiveIntentions · 2020-01-12T17:29:59+00:00

Circumcision is genital mutilation. It has zero benefits and does a lot of harm.

The foreskin has several functions and accounts for most of the sensitivity of the penis.

A comparison of the fine touch sensitivity of an uncircumcised penis and a circumcised one.

The normal glans is an internal structure, only exposed briefly during urination, washing, and sexual arousal. Its surface is moist and is not keratinised. However, circumcision converts the glans into an external organ. Immediately after the operation, it retains its exquisite sensitivity, and contact with clothing causes considerable discomfort, but it soon becomes desensitised, probably as a result of the laying down of a layer of keratin on the epithelium. A few circumcised men report persistent discomfort from contact with clothing throughout their lives. The epithelium takes on the character of skin instead of a mucous membrane.

Not only is the appearance of the glans altered, but also there is a dramatic loss of sensitivity.

A keratinised circumcised penis and an uncircumcised penis.

No data is collected on the complications and risks of circumcision in America as there is no legal obligation to do so. Infections, haemorrhages, meatal strictures, (partial) amputations of the penis and deaths occur. Even circumcisions performed in sterile environments result in a lot of complications. Over 100 babies die in the US every year because of complications during the procedure. When circumcision is performed in other, less developed countries, the risks are even higher.

Pictures of complications in adults

Pictures of complications in infants

Pictures of complications in tribal men

Many cut men suffer from meatal stenosis

Fine‐touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis

CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

Male circumcision decreases penile sensitivity as measured in a large cohort

CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning. Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population. Before circumcision without medical indication, adult men, and parents considering circumcision of their sons, should be informed of the importance of the foreskin in male sexuality.

The effect of male circumcision on sexuality

CONCLUSIONS: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.

The prepuce: specialised mucosa of the penis and its loss to circumcision

CONCLUSIONS: The amount of tissue loss estimated in the present study is more than most parents envisage from pre‐operative counselling. Circumcision also ablates junctional mucosa that appears to be an important component of the overall sensory mechanism of the human penis.

Erectile function evaluation after adult circumcision

CONCLUSIONS: Adult circumcision has certain effect on erectile function, to which more importance should be attached.

Male circumcision and sexual function in men and women: a survey-based, cross-sectional study in Denmark

CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment. Thorough examination of these matters in areas where male circumcision is more common is warranted.

Variability in penile appearance and penile findings: a prospective study

CONCLUSIONS: There are significant variations of appearance in circumcised boys; clinical findings are much more common in these boys than previously reported in retrospective studies. The circumcised penis requires more care than the intact penis during the first 3 years of life. Parents should be instructed to retract and clean any skin covering the glans in circumcised boys, to prevent adhesions forming and debris from accumulating. Penile inflammation (balanitis) may be more common in circumcised boys; preputial stenosis (phimosis) affects circumcised and intact boys with equal frequency. The revision of circumcision for purely cosmetic reasons should be discouraged on both medical and ethical grounds.

Cultural background, non-therapeutic circumcision and the risk of meatal stenosis and other urethral stricture disease: Two nationwide register-based cohort studies in Denmark 1977–2013

CONCLUSIONS: Our study provides population-based epidemiological evidence that circumcision removes the natural protection against meatal stenosis and, possibly, other USDs as well.

The psychological impact of circumcision.

CONCLUSIONS: There is strong evidence that circumcision is overwhelmingly painful and traumatic. Behavioral changes in circumcised infants have been observed 6 months after circumcision. The physical and sexual loss resulting from circumcision is gaining recognition, and some men have strong feelings of dissatisfaction about being circumcised.

Clinical elicitation of the penilo‐cavernosus reflex in circumcised men

CONCLUSIONS: The study confirmed the lower clinical and similar neurophysiological elicitability of the penilo‐cavernosus reflex in circumcised men and in men with foreskin retraction. This finding needs to be taken into account by urologists and other clinicians in daily clinical practice.

Prospective investigation of penile length with newborn male circumcision and second to fourth digit ratio

CONCLUSIONS: Despite the small number of subjects, this study shows that NMC was associated with shorter penile length. Second to fourth digit ratio, flaccid penile length, and age of circumcision were also significant predictive factors for erectile penile length. Further multicentre studies with larger number of subjects and biochemical analyses are needed for potential clinical applicability.

DarthEquus · 2020-01-12T17:17:00+00:00

I would recommend watching these presentations:

This presentation from Dr. Guest goes over the medical aspects very well: He covers the anatomy of the foreskin, the sensations, the medical aspects and statistics, the evolutionary aspects, cultural bias, medical ethics, and more: https://youtu.be/XwZiQyFaAs0?t=28m20

This presentation, Circumcision The Elephant in the Hospital, from Research Assistant Professor Ryan McAllister, challenges the normality of circumcision from both a social and medical perspective: https://youtu.be/Ceht-3xu84I

This is the documentary American Circumcision that was released on Netflix: https://archive.org/details/CircMovie

This video goes into the details regarding the supposed health benefits of circumcision: https://youtu.be/s9A6gPT55zQ

This presentation from Ethicist Brian Earp excellently covers all the ethical, social, and religious aspects: https://youtu.be/SB-2aQoTQeA

Another presentation by Brian Earp on how male circumcision proponents are making it possible to legalize FGM: https://youtu.be/GBH0g_Cl7Rk

This presentation, Sex and Circumcision: an American Love Story, by Eric Clopper should at least provide you with some laughs: https://youtu.be/FCuy163srRc

Here are some actual circumcision videos. If watching something like this makes you feel uncomfortable, imagine how he must feel: https://www.yourwholebaby.org/circumcision-videos

This rabbit hole gets even crazier when you take a look at the other male genital modifications done in different cultures throughout the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Male_genital_modification. I'm guessing you wouldn't be too thrilled if some of these things were done to you as a baby.

intactisnormal · 2020-01-12T19:23:09+00:00

I recommend watching these presentations:

This presentation from Dr. Guest goes over the medical aspects very well: He covers the anatomy of the foreskin, the sensations, the medical aspects and statistics, the evolutionary aspects, cultural bias, medical ethics, and more: https://youtu.be/XwZiQyFaAs0?t=28m20

This presentation, Circumcision The Elephant in the Hospital, from Research Assistant Professor Ryan McAllister, challenges the normality of circumcision from both a social and medical perspective: https://youtu.be/Ceht-3xu84I

This presentation from Ethicist Brian Earp excellently covers all the medical, ethical, and social aspects https://youtu.be/SB-2aQoTQeA

Garrison_road2 · 2020-01-12T16:18:22+00:00

Significant loss of sexual pleasure and sensitivity. a little over a year ago, I was circumcised, and it was one of the worst decisions of my entire life. It was ruined sex and sexual pleasure for me; I want to convince people that it DOES affect how sensitive your penis is, big time. If you look it up about half of studies say it does, half of studies say it doesnt...i don't give a damn what those other studies say, let me tell you 100% it does

the difference in sensitivity...the whole surface skin feels 'numb' for most of the time. it used to be my penis would have a 'sharp' and 'tingling' feeling when stimulated, like if i was masturbating, every stroke would cause legit pleasure that felt good. now, its like i can sense the 'friction' and stimulation, but it barely feels 'good', its just like satisfying an urge. it onyl really gets 'sensitive' towards the last 10 seconds before orgasm...this is what the very first to last stroke used to feel like.

uncut sensitivity is like an 'in your face' pleasure, again like a sharp feeling...roll up some toilet paper into a thin little string and tickle your lips of your mouth, that almost overly sensitive feeling...thats similar to what its like, but very very nice to feel

orgasms themselves are about times 2x, and longer, and you feel better after. they also extend throughout the whole waist area, not that you can even really notice with how good your penis feels at the time

its very depressing and im constantly battling not thinking about it. ive started foreskin restoration but apparently that takes 2 weeks and you still dont get the original nerve endings back. i research it a lot, some things you lose during circumcision (warning, wiki articles with NSFW pictures of male organs)

the ridged band

The effect of circumcision on sexual function is the subject of intense debate. Taylor's view is that "almost certainly, removal of the prepuce and its ridged band distorts penile reflexogenic functions but exactly how and to what extent still remains to be seen

trust me, ive seen enough.

frenulum

The frenulum and the associated tissue delta on the underside of the penis below the corona has been described in sexuality textbooks as "very reactive" and "particularly responsive to touch that is light and soft". The "underside of the shaft of the penis, meaning the part below the corona" is a "source of distinct pleasure

the nerves in the forskin are called 'meissners corpsucles', they are removed and dont grow back

so yeah, i know if you wiki 'circumcision' the article actually says it DOESNT affect pleasure. and i know there are studies that say that. idc if the best scientists in the world did those studies, they are wrong.

as for why i did it, im american, i read the bogus good stuff about it, i was 19 and live in an area where most people are. but i would trade it back in an instant.

shadowguyver · 2020-01-12T16:51:03+00:00

It's a surgery performed on a healthy child to prevent problems there are no guarantee that person will ever have. Any other surgery like this would be considered unethical and morally wrong.

Religion and society should not have any say over anyone's body more than they do.

Currently 30 states have genital mutilation laws that exclusively protects girls from all forms of cutting even for religious and cultural reasons. These laws violate the equal protection clause as they only protect one group from situation others also experience.

needletothebar · 2020-01-12T19:44:17+00:00

circumcision removes the five most sensitive parts of the penis and takes about 80% of your sexual pleasure away. you don't need to have any health complications to be upset that this was done to you.

circumcision leaves scarring and an ugly two-tone appearance on your shaft when erect. many of us consider this disfiguring. you don't need to have any health complications to be upset that this was done to you.

circumcision leaves your glans exposed to air and abrasion with fabric. this leads to discomfort and chafing, and also to a keratinized glans with a dry, pale, wrinkly look that many of us consider disfiguring. you don't need to have any health complications to be upset that this was done to you.

have you ever looked at side-by-side comparison pictures? the evidence of major damage is clear.

ausgamer529 · 2020-01-12T17:16:59+00:00

Your people didn't invent the practice but adopted it from the ancient Egyptians who used it as a way to mark slaves and make said slaves miserable. The jews used it as a way to make their scholars less distracted by making sex feel like nothing. The Christian puritans popularized it in the states. This being said I hate all 3 groups. Fuck yours, fuck the Egyptians and fuck the puritans.

Tobygaby · 2020-01-12T21:18:35+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/Foregen/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CircumcisionGrief/new/

vixtoria000 · 2020-01-13T21:45:32+00:00

No one hates circumcision. They hate that men do not have their genitals protected by the law like women in the united states. We hate that babys are being tortured for a cosmetic procedure they didnt get to consent to.

IntactBroadSword · 2020-01-14T09:19:13+00:00

"I'm a jew"

You just answered your own question

IntelligentSpite3 · 2020-01-12T17:46:15+00:00

I know right? I was circumsised as a baby and I'm fine, I love how these dudes are seemingly placing the most importance on this instead of trying to get abortion and child support abolished, give women the same sentences, make false rape accusations punishable by the death sentence etc.

Just another case of people these days trying to get the wrong things banned and make the world "better" in all the wrong ways, apparently they don't care about the dudes that might wanna get all that extra skin that's in the way cut off when they grow up, to me this is the same as the "AbORtIoN IS MuRdeR" thing, it's just plain dumb and not as serious as they claim and only ironically making things worse not better.

Title	Circumcision
Author	ak_boom
Upvotes	26
Comments	58
Date	January 12, 2020 3:29 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/enori0/circumcision/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/circumcision.861205 https://theredarchive.com/post/861205

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