Discussion Topic: Solving the 'wage gap'

rossraskolnikov · 2015-11-30T14:53:26+00:00

Pay transparency within companies/industries. Hidden names on CVs Default shared child custody.

danpilon · 2015-11-30T19:21:13+00:00

I frankly don't care what the gap is as long as it is a result of personal choices and not discrimination, which I believe has shown to be the case rather thoroughly. If you do care about closing the gap, regardless, one side that is almost never discussed is why men choose to work as much as they do, not just why women choose not to (or choose lower paying jobs). Men are often pressured into their career choices as much as women are. Take pressure off of men by making alimony and child support more fair, changing the mindset that men should be providers, and getting women to not base their attraction at all on a man's career, and the gap will seriously decrease. I don't see this as realistically happening any time soon.

badass_panda · 2015-11-30T14:32:58+00:00

Solve what?

If the reasons are choices people make, what is there to solve?

I have two kids. I took a total of 6 days from work when they were born (they were both born near a weekend, so that helped...).

I could have taken much more time, but it didn't seem like I needed to. So being given more paternity leave wouldn't have made a difference.

Unless you're proposing that I be forced to take more time off, I'd still be in the office more than a woman who gave birth.

Right now, companies all around me (Silicon Valley) are adding 'unlimited' vacation polices and adding paternity leave. No one I know is taking any more time off, since it would be career suicide to actually do it.

The 'solution' is to get people to accept the consequences of thier choices.

Juan_Golt · 2015-11-30T17:10:40+00:00

Different countries have different "pay gaps". Why re-invent the wheel when we can look at what has already worked in other places in the world.

https://youtu.be/BE9GQtp2LfI

We don't have a gender pay gap, we have a parenting pay gap.

Give fathers equal rights to be the primary caregiver of children.

BlueCollarAristocrat · 2015-11-30T15:03:53+00:00

There is no wage gap.

There is an earnings gap, merit gap, labor gap, and how much profit you make your employer gap.

badass_panda · 2015-11-30T14:50:58+00:00

How to close the gender pay gap once and for all.

Some have looked at the root cause of the earnings gap and determined that there is either no real problem, or that the problem can’t be solved. This is untrue. Equality of the sexes is a national priority and we are a wealthy nation. No matter what the cost, it will be worth it to close the earnings gap. Now that we understand the root cause of the problem, the solution is surprisingly obvious. We need to remove the incentives which are causing men to prioritize higher earnings. Men prioritize earnings under the outdated patriarchal system where men are seen as the breadwinners. Until we solve this problem, the wage gap will persist. Part of the problem is biological, but we know that there are institutional ways to circumvent these differences of biology.

What we need to do is remove the powerful incentives men and boys perceive to being the family breadwinner. These incentives are the root cause of men choosing harder but higher paying majors, accepting a longer commute, working longer hours, choosing a more demanding or even dangerous work environment, etc. It is important to understand that these choices are cumulative and begin very early in life. As I mentioned above part of the problem is biological; men are motivated to make these sexist choices by a desire to be more successful sexually. While we can’t change men’s and women’s sexual natures, we know we can do a great deal to change the rules of the sexual marketplace.

The first data point I’ll offer is from the American Enterprise Institute. Their most recent study on the topic found that married men earn at least $15,900 per year more than unmarried men. This greatly understates the perverse incentives marriage causes for men to work harder however, because it doesn’t account for the incentives men experience to maximize their earnings potential in the years leading up to marriage. Men who choose marriage as a sexual/family strategy know that the more they can earn the better their options in marriage will be, and this is why so many men persist in making problematic choices in their education and early career which lead to much of the gender pay gap.

The second data point I’ll offer is more tangible. To prove that marriage is the source of the pay gap problem we need to find a community which has moved away from marriage and see if the earnings gap has actually disappeared. In the US the logical choice for this test is Blacks, as marriage has all but collapsed among Black Americans. Over 70% of Black children are now born out of wedlock, and this statistic continues to improve. At the same time, we also know that the Black gender earnings gap has all but disappeared. As Hanna Rosin explains, Black women earn 94% of the weekly earnings of Black men. Black men are leading the way here, and all we have to do is get the rest of the nation’s men to follow.

jamminnummeruno · 2015-11-30T14:51:24+00:00

Give men equal non-transferable paternity leave time. Abolish laws that allow women early retirement.

Address policies that discriminate against men, and employers will no longer be forced to discriminate against female employees for potentially getting pregnant and posing a risk to the company.

ee4m · 2015-11-30T15:04:46+00:00

If its to be solved, the efforts should revolve around increasing mens rights, it will be "solved" as a by product.

Equalize retirement ages.

Reproduction - give men the right to say no.

End alimony.

Child support - dont incentivize reducing the fathers hands on involvement.

Paternity leave for men.

2015-11-30T16:01:33+00:00

Wages - or, rather, earnings - mirror productivity (better than anything else). And productivity on an individual level has nothing to do with the genders. Some people are less productive and some more, some are women, some are men.

Women have two "handicaps" as a gender, though. They make kids and can't work as strenuous jobs as men.

Then again men have several handicaps: they are less educated, service job employers don't want them (most new jobs), men have damaging stereotypes imposed on them, predominantly female branches discriminate against them in recruiting and I'm sure I forgot something.

And yet men earn more, not young men or garbage men, but men on average. What can be done? The only solution I can see is to force women back to work as soon as possible after giving birth, forbidding "home maker" as an activity for women and force men to stay home.

That way, abracadabra, women would be earning more in no time.

MuFoxxa · 2015-11-30T17:15:30+00:00

should there be an effort to solve it, and if so, why and how?

No. The solution would mean attempting to either social engineer peoples life choices or force them into roles they do not choose. As long as the EARNINGS gap is understood, and explained as a consequence of someones choices then I do not think anyone needs to forced or guided to a specific choice just because some group has it in their head that is how it should be.

Freedom of choice is more important than someones pie chart results.

My feeling is that at least part of it (the disadvantage of taking maternity leave) is a problem for everyone, and needs to be fixed:

Why is it a problem for everyone?

giving everyone the right to either maternity or paternity leave, in

This I agree with, providing a basic assistance or at least opportunity for both parents to take leave is a good path.

equal amounts (or possibly even requiring both parents to take it)

I don't see how that is in anyway ok. FORCING someone to not work? Hell no brother.

Allowing both a choice to figure out between themselves sure. They can decide based on their individual circumstance how they want to do it, but requiring it is logistically never going to work (unless it's very short term) and frankly just wrong.

would both eliminate that portion of the wage gap,

Eliminate Alimony(or reduce it to no more than 3 years to give time for someone to get training/backo n their feat). IE, force people to support themselves without the safety net of the exspouses paycheck would help bring at least some sense of personal accountability for your outcome but also be an incentive to get as much as you can from work.

and advance male parental rights significantly.

Default shared custody, with modifications based on parents arrangement (50/50 just might not work for them) or based on PROVEN examples not just based on last minute allegations or "feelings".

aussietoads · 2015-12-01T04:40:33+00:00

To female feminists : who among you is going to work more and longer hours, outside, in dangerous conditions, to kick this wage gap to the kerb?

badass_panda · 2015-11-30T14:29:00+00:00

If women want to be paid the same as men they can work as hard as men do, and put their careers first, not have babies and so forth.

But this is the thing, what they WANT is the MONEY without the WORK.

And for women to make more money than men, but there to be a pool of great breadwinners so every girl can be looked after financially by a man.

WOMAN LOGIC.

Title	Discussion Topic: Solving the 'wage gap'
Author	badass_panda
Upvotes	1
Comments	46
Date	November 30, 2015 2:22 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3uus0v/discussion_topic_solving_the_wage_gap/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/discussion-topic-solving-the-wage-gap.966060 https://theredarchive.com/post/966060

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