Evidence that MRA is not a hate group.

Ashamed-Sandwich9166 · 2021-09-18T19:22:53+00:00

Tell anyone who says that to provide specific examples of MRA promoting hate.

rainbow_bro_bot · 2021-09-18T22:13:20+00:00

We're a "hate group" because we talk about issues that affect men. They're upset because it isn't about them.

Input_output_error · 2021-09-18T20:30:32+00:00

You can't really prove that something doesn't happen, what you can do is ask them to proof that MRA is a hate group. If they think that this is an 'opt out' ask if they can prove that the great spaghetti monster doesn't exist.

LoveHotelCondom · 2021-09-18T23:03:37+00:00

The standards of evidence on Wikipedia are non-existent.

As part of the manosphere, the movement, and sectors of the movement, have been described by scholars and commentators as misogynistic, hateful, and, in some cases, as advocating violence against women.

As you can see, they immediately create a false syllogism and use that to justify a guilt by association argument. Here is their reasoning:

The MRM is a movement for men.
Movements for men are part of the manosphere.
The manosphere includes incel groups.
Therefore, the MRM is a hateful incel group.

This entire line is completely fallacious. The so-called manosphere is a term conjured by feminists to throw the MRM in the same bag as other any other groups feminists deem inappropriate. The MRM, incels, redpill, MGTOW, and other such groups are entirely ideologically divorced from each other, yet by saying they're all the same, feminists can say that MRAs believe in anything that incels do. It is like saying that dogs hibernate because they walk on four legs and have fur, and are therefore exactly the same as bears.

Here is it in action, from one of the poorly-written sources claiming that the MRM promotes violence against women:

In this paper, we study this phenomenon by investigating the flow of extreme language across seven online communities on Reddit, with openly misogynistic members (e.g., Men Going Their Own Way, Involuntarily Celibates), and investigate if and how misogynistic ideas spread within and across these communities.

They didn't explicitly name MensRights (in the abstract at least), but since feminists are never subject to any academic criticism, they can just lie and say it's the same thing. They will never acknowledge that their premise is intentionally false, despite the fact that they know damn well it is.

Feminists are extremely eager to make false accusations against men. Often times these accusations are subtle ("If you dislike feminism, I wonder what your sexual misconduct history is, hmmm?") and often times they are direct ("This man in my workplace sexually assaulted me. I want his job.") It is a social power and privilege they know they hold, because it allows them to say or do anything they want.

KissMyAsthma-99 · 2021-09-19T01:35:26+00:00

I've successfully 'turned' one 'feminist' in my life. I did so thusly:

I first found one who was willing to debate in quasi-good faith. That is tough, but doable. Next, I challenged them to find one topic that they agreed men face that women don't. In other words, an area where men have a justified complaint. I also told her to pick a women's cause, of which she had no difficulty. I then challenged her to create a throwaway reddit account and use it to post about that issue to several popular feminist subs and also her female issue to multiple men's subs.

The results convinced her that maybe she had some things wrong. Although she got downvotes in men's subs, she also got lots of conversations and very few insults. In feminist subs, she not only got (more) downvotes, she also got many insults and outright threats, plus she got banned in short order.

This was a few years ago, and I imagine the results today would be even more dramatic.

DouglasWallace · 2021-09-18T22:56:51+00:00

You have it round the wrong way. It is not for you to provide a defence until they can provide a proof.

Crafty-Tackle · 2021-09-19T02:27:31+00:00

It is because MRA is about promoting men's rights. It is not about hating women.

63daddy · 2021-09-18T20:09:59+00:00

Feminists have lobbied for and won dozens of laws that discriminate against men. MRAs haven’t lobbied for laws that discriminate against women.

Hundreds of thousands of feminists using the hashtag KillAllMen. Few examples of KillAllWomen.

The feminist SCUM Manifesto which advocates the end of men has been translated into several languages with millions of copies or downloads. There is no such MRA manifesto.

Remarkable_Weather21 · 2021-09-18T22:26:27+00:00

say the same shit they tell us all the time say they are not real masculinists or something like that use their spells against them

iainmf · 2021-09-19T11:23:09+00:00

It's not hateful to advocate for human rights.

Saying that a group can't advocate for their own rights is hateful.

elebrin · 2021-09-19T04:02:44+00:00

Here is my argument:

Movements like "MRA" are wide and varied. They encompass a wide variety of views, such as redpillers, MGTOW, recently divorced men who have become embittered, and even men who are mainly pissed off that they were circumcised. There are a LOT of goals and ideas that fall under the umbrella.

Feminism is much the same. Some feminists mostly want to defend rights for women. Others literally want to kill all but a few dozen men for reproductive purposes, or have other truly crazy outlooks.

We can argue all day about nae true scotsman fallacies, but ultimately we have to accept that large movements often have some bad actors and some extremist ideas.

Instead of doing that, let's engage with the ideas and think of useful actions that we as individuals can take (political or otherwise) that will make things better. I think most politically oriented groups get caught up in simply trying to throw off critics who decry specific elements of their worldview. We need to accept that the extremists exist and not shy away from engaging with their ideas. Engaging with specific ideas and discussing their merits is a far more worthy pursuit.

DavidByron2 · 2021-09-19T16:25:12+00:00

These places can't even define what a hate group is.

Right wing groups such as feminism often attack opponents by accusing them of what they themselves are guilty of. I have wondered about this odd phenomena for a long time and I'm not sure why they do this. Possibly it's just a misimpression on my part and it really doesn't happen that much. Or perhaps it's just a schoolyard taunt level of response because they don't really understand what's going on but they know they stand accused of bad stuff and simply reverse. "I know you are, but what am I?"

I suspect that people on the right have a hard time understanding the ethics of the left and when condemned by them they don't quite get the idea and so it is often easier to simple throw the charge back.

It should be beyond obvious that if you accuse someone of being X you should have a pretty good idea of what the word X means. In the case of calling someone a hate movement though, these right wing groups don't seem to either know or feel the need to know the meaning of the word so casually thrown about. Even the SPLC has no definition of hate group and they pretend to measure them. It's all left like a "I know it when I see it" type of thing but of course such a view convinces nobody and is subject to subjective biases.

Here's a list of attributes common to hate groups:

a tribalist in-group vs out-group attitude with the target out group being defined as a birth group (eg race, sex, nationality, orientation or disability) or religion
support for discrimination in law and in key institutional practices (apartheid) attacking the out-group
using lies (including historic revisionism) to create threat narratives about the out group
teaching that the out group is subhuman and not deserving of human compassion
support for segregation of the in and out groups both physically and figuratively
endorse the use of violence against the out group

A hate group is not:

A bunch of people who hate people (the word "hate" does not refer to the emotion here, and in fact a more common emotion would be contempt, disgust or fear).
discrimination against a political group or another group voluntarily joined (though religion is an exception as most people are just born into it).
just being pissed at people

Bearing in mind these definitions MRA is not a hate movement. MRA don't have anything against women (and includes many women of course) and feminists are a political group, not a birth group.

alclarkey · 2021-09-20T21:31:49+00:00

Nobody is obligated to prove they're not something. If someone is accusing you of being something evil, it is their obligation to prove you are.

Title	Evidence that MRA is not a hate group.
Author	bloodfuel
Upvotes	41
Comments	26
Date	September 18, 2021 6:35 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/pqrvos/evidence_that_mra_is_not_a_hate_group/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/evidence-that-mra-is-not-a-hate-group.1075719 https://theredarchive.com/post/1075719

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