Help me understand

Salonimo · 2024-04-10T03:21:00+00:00

Hello and thank you for caring, hope my formatting won't be too bad.

Q: "Why should any female, especially female teenagers want anything to do with this movement in its current state?"

R: I don't think human rights needs to be directly involved to be interested in, but you probably have male family members and likely want a companion your life

Q: "All my life I’ve been subjected to sexism, I’ve been assaulted multiple times, most people I know across multiple countries in my age bracket majority of females seem to have been assaulted more than males. Majority females have been sexualised, or told they couldn’t be something because they are female. Males my age constantly slut shame and belittle women. New words every day to describe teenage girls… I don’t really see why one would be a die hard MRA but not a feminist in my age bracket. Can’t someone be both?"

A: I'm so sorry for what was done to you, that's fucked up and on average you're most likely right in who's the bigger perpretrator of sexual assault, but it's important to not forget men and boys are victims too, and are taken as seriously, they're ignored and mocked by police (only recently i've been reading about something beind done about it), when the rapist is female it's not called a rapist and in some countries it's impossible to define it rape because it legally specifically have to involve penetration, there's a lot of sexisms against men too, and like women, many of them don't recognize it or cannot grasp the inherently wrongness of it to put into words, feminism helped in this regard and I think it did do something important.

Q: "Half the comments on posts are upvoted to oblivion when all they do is generalise and bash women. It’s hard to stay in a community which is so manosphere adjacent. Like I’ve been told my whole life to stay away from people who talk about how women only care about looks money etc. But I see the same people on this sub every day."

A: TBH here seem super chill vs how hateful and bashing many feminists subs are, but you have a point, some post are like that, but men have left 0 spaces to vent about men issues and women, I don't know if you can see in media in general how men are bashed and hated on for just existing or seen inherently as predators, not justifying crap and sexists posts ofc, we're talking broadly here

Q: "People on here don’t care about women being assaulted. I tried making a post on here about a men’s rights shelter but it wouldn’t let me idk."

A: I do care and I think many do, but that issue is very talked and cared about in many spheres, this sphere is about men, still important to talk about given context.
I invite you to Make a throwaway acc and post about men being assaulted in feminist subs, lmk how it goes

A: "I agree with a lot of views. I mean, I think circumcision is abhorrent, I believe family court is in fact biased towards women, I do think men’s mental health should be taken seriously. But like, doesn’t every normal person also think this way?"

Q: No not everyone does, only recently it has been raised as an issue and In my direct experience I got insulted by the girlfriend of a friend after arguing about circumcision, while discussing it she immediately dropped out that Infibulation is worse, to which I agreed, but the conversation heated from there, as if talking about this circumsision as an issue took away from the issue of infibulation and started downplaying it and argument in silly ways like "if so many do it it's not that bad, has medical benefits ecc" until I got insulted and I simply stayed quiet, it's just anectodal ofc, but it's not the first and only men issue I struggled to even talk about.

Q: "Yall hate feminists"

A: I used to think myself a feminist, when I thought it actually advocated for equality, I hate sexism, and feminism is being used as a tool to further propagate sexism so when that happens I don't like it

AdamChap · 2024-04-10T03:40:21+00:00

I would be banned for saying anything close to this in female spaces. I am banned from 2X for instance simply for asking if the reverse of something would be sexist. Thank god you are free to be here, and talk! Worth keeping in mind.

Personally I have been abused by women. I have had a girlfriend reject over 100 hundred "no's" and still she slapped me and made me have sex with her, what could I have done? Hit her? Told someone? Who would believe me. Just do it. A few years later a girl plied me with alcohol and later snuck into my room after many rejections...

Just to give a little background like you did, food for thought.

No one, and I mean no one especially people my age (28) and below thinks women aren't oppressed. It's pumped to us at every corner of our lives. We are feminist by default - I USED to be one - diehard when I was 16. The thing is as you get older as a man you begin to see that no one cares about you like people care about women. Women think people hate them and are out to get them but in reality, especially if society is patriarchal - men are still competing for the love and attention of women... It's crazy that women think men care about men more than they care about women. All of the care in the world goes to them - and that's why society is so disgusted when female sexuality is oppressed but don't even know what male sexual oppression looks like.

You seem to have a few complaints about slut shaming and I don't care to get into the ins-and-out as to why less sexual partners for woman is a virtue whilst the opposite is true for men. Men get shamed for being incels, hell I get called an incel and the things I have done... oh boy... The shame goes both ways for opposite reasons.

It's just worth saying that we ALL experience sexism but society mostly only seems to focus on one type. Probably because we see women as the fairer sex, probably because women are more likely to express their grievance AND be taken seriously, it's hard to tell.

Why should any female, especially female teenagers want anything to do with this movement in its current state?

Here is a great example for you. You used the word female? Lets see what female spaces say about us using it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/vbk1zu/men_who_call_women_females/

honestly their may be some petty comments here sometimes from men, and some pointless bitching and wining about women, but there's often other types on men to check them here. Women's spaces though... I'm not too sure, maybe you can tell us.

So why would you want anything to do with their movement?

BoomTheBear86 · 2024-04-10T06:37:25+00:00

I think the aims of “the movement” are currently vague due to a lack of unity in men’s rights spaces on goals (emancipation from gender roles versus return to traditionalism. I favour the former)

I do think a lot of men are sceptical of women in these spaces, ironically for a reason you’re actually demonstrating whether you intend to or not.

“But what about women and feminism”. This isn’t a space to discuss women’s issues. This is a space to discuss men’s issues.

I’m not going to sit here and and claim all conversation here is productive. A lot is just angry tilting at gender windmills. That is something indeed men in the group can and should sort out.

However you are not the first nor will you be the last woman to come into the group and display interest/curiosity, in the form of several questions of how we consider our issues and how significant/severe they are compared to those of women.

TheTinMen did a great post on this a while back which referred to this as “kissing the ring” - the tendency to make it impossible to discuss men’s issues and have them taken seriously without first acknowledging women’s issues and how much more serious they are in various areas.

A lot of men are sick of this. We want a space to discuss our issues in their own terms without having some bizarre need to first recite a tokenistic mantra about how we first acknowledge that women get assaulted, how women experience X. Women who come to this group tend to bring that to our doorstep.

This behaviour is exactly the same as the behaviour that feminists (rightly) reject when they’re discussing women’s issues and someone goes “but what about men…?”. It’s tone deaf and self absorbed.

I’m not trying to be rude, but if you can’t look at these issues and groups like this without humouring the idea you need to park this need to look at things comparatively and view discussion of them without first acknowledging women’s issues as “equivalent to rejecting women’s issues” then you won’t have a fun time.

I can go into a debate group to discuss the ethics of some specific issue. I shouldn’t need to declare that I’m pro LGBT rights (assume the issue has nothing to do with LGBT rights) or anti racism (assume the same) first, in order for people to not interpret my discussion of said issue as being equivalent to me saying “I don’t care about those other things at all”.

And this is what women do a lot in men’s discussion spaces. If we discuss our issues without acknowledging women’s first, they view it as equivalent to us assuming women have no issues at all. It’s childish logic and makes no sense and frustrates discussion of the actual issues. Imagine thinking that if I want to talk about why apples are my favourite fruit, that’s equivalent to me saying I hate every other fruit simply because I haven’t said otherwise.

It’s a way to control the discussion, and lots of us here tire of it. There are thousands of places to freely discuss women’s issues. There are not a huge amount for men, so why can’t we discuss them freely? Why does every space that discusses sex and gender issues have to have women as a focal point?

Smeg-life · 2024-04-10T03:00:35+00:00

But like, doesn’t every normal person also think this way? - Nope.

Yall hate feminists - Nope. Feminism is a wide spectrum from 1st wave to 4th wave etc. A first wave feminist would have different views to a 4th wave feminist. I want equality, simple as that.

People on here don’t care about women being assaulted - They do, but they have their own issues as well.

seem to have been assaulted more than males - Which countries is that in and which males do you know? I had the sh!t kicked out of me at school and returned the favour to them. All boys school (600+ age 11-16) we all fought so I suppose we were all assualted. Does that count? I really didn't see it as a big thing and don't even now, it was standard at that school. It also taught me how to avoid confrontations and after school I've never had any issues with guys, the only people who had issues with me were female. Talk to bouncers and they will tell you the most violent people and the ones who encourage the violence are female.

'From my pov this is how things seem to be' - I suppose the answer is 'what are you looking for?'

Jaded-Help1860 · 2024-04-10T05:46:12+00:00

I was about to do exactly what you asked for in the title but after reading what you wrote about us… do you really want to understand or are just pretending that you want to? Is all that you wrote really what you concluded was true about this sub? That we don’t care about women’s cases?

We do, but to put it bluntly, this is a men’s space. You are welcome here, but it’s obvious that men’s issues will be discussed more. As for bashing women thing… at least we target only the women responsible for the problems. Anyone who unnecessarily spreads hate towards all women is downvoted and called out. This sub even calls out the damage done by men who became simps and ruined everything for us. All because they had power and wanted more power.

As for blaming majority of women, no, miss. We weren’t the ones who devised the vile line “not all men but always a man” which was brought up by feminists once they realized not all men was a strong counter to their propaganda. They accepted it, but only with the condition that it is indeed all men.

You said you wanted no arguments, but this is sadly something which cannot be explained without arguing. Anyone with a brain can understand that. I just wish men would get the same amount of respect and welcome in your forums the way you do even though you do seem to have an understanding of the fact that narrating your own backstory even in good faith will be perceived by many as a means to downplay men’s issues in their own forum.

I can go on for hours.

reverbiscrap · 2024-04-10T06:57:18+00:00

This sub is primarily concerned with policy as it revolves around acknowledging and protecting the human rights of men, worldwide in many cases. If you are not read up and familiar with the political works of the MRM, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the sub.

This is a perfect example of the length and breadth of policy that applies. Please read it, and the accompanying links to the studies it has.

https://newblackmasculinities.wordpress.com/2020/09/24/the-black-male-political-agenda-by-t-hasan-johnson-ph-d/

DeddestNash · 2024-04-10T11:59:53+00:00

You totally can be both. I also support a lot of women's rights , like you said shouldn't everyone?

The thing is here, feminism is definitely a buzz word and you cant blame them. The term now is quite lose. A feminist could be someone like you or I, or they can be a straight up misandrist. I'm sure you have seen the men bashing in female equivalent spaces too. We get a lot of them here making satire posts or just coming here to insult men.

Same thing kind of happens here unfortunately. People automatically assume a mens rights sub is full of women haters, so women haters actually flock here. Although you may find there's a difference between saying all and saying a majority or a lot of. It's picky I know but you can't deny someone of bad experiences with a lot of women.

Just like I can say that a lot of men in my life have been straight up cruel or abusive to me too. But a lot of men have also been the exact opposite of that. You won't really see the second opinion here on women because mens rights will always circle the negative side of things because that is why we are here. We are not here to discuss how some women are amazing are we? But we have had a lot of women appreciative posts here too!

Remember how you said you know a lot of women that have at some point in their life been sexualised or had something similar happen to them? Well like you said youre aware men have issues too like how they are treated by laws and courts, bodily rights taken away at birth and so on. I'm sure you've seen a lot of women, and I know I have especially on tiktok sort of join together on posts about men being murdered or sexually assaulted and they joke about it. Hell I even saw one posted here the other day. Full of jokes that were given 10 to 50k likes on each one. Upvote to oblivion. Sure some might be bandwagon hopping but I'm sure a lot of those women may have experienced what you pointed out with your friends. It's frustration, it's spite. And men are guilty of it too. It doesn't make it right but it also doesn't make it singular to just men.

I'm a woman too, I sometimes state it but sometimes I don't like to. It depends if I feel like I may have different opinions and experiences because of my gender which is definitely possible. I've been here for 2 years and I haven't ever really been struck down for saying I'm a woman. In fact I had my first one this week, but I've been here for 2 years. I've talked to a few guys that have said they hated women in a massive rant post about exes and partners. But I mostly find that when they reply they will admit to being angry and not really hating women. Again I don't agree but it does happen and I can't lie about it.

Gender issues aren't black and white. There is one side but then also another. Women and men can be affected but it's never one genders fault. And never should just be one gender to fix it either.

Huitzil37 · 2024-04-10T14:15:37+00:00

I don't think you can be a feminist and an MRA at the same time, and it'd important to know why.

Feminism is not just the idea that women shouldn't be subject to sexism. It's an entire worldview and system of beliefs about what sexism is, how it works, and how to change it -- and those beliefs are wrong. It doesn't matter if you are for women's emancipation if you don't know what that is and don't know how to attain it.

Feminism is not "reverse sexism," it is the normal kind. Because sexism is not a thing that agentic men inflict on helpless women because they hate women -- sexism is a system participated in by both men and women, whose goal is to maximize women's safety at the cost of their agency, and maximize men's agency at the cost of their safety. Women are safer than men -- they are raped as often as men, domestically abused as often as men, and every other form of violence one human being can inflict on another happens overwhelmingly more often to men.

But feminism is obsessed with women's safety, and specifically, obsessed with how men have to ensure women's safety because women are helpless. The idea that women are helpless and men must enlist their agency to make women safe is the core of sexism as old as humanity itself. One of the biases that keeps sexism going is the bias to never ever think women are safe enough while ignoring the question of how safe men are. Feminists will cite examples of bad things happening to women, never compare them to anything bad happening to men, and then conclude women are less safe than men and it's proof men gate women.

It's bias that makes it so you constantly hear about men who hurt women, because sexism makes people card about that way more. Sexism tells women to constantly be in fear of men because men are threatening and women are victimized. This is how sexism controls people's behavior, and it's exactly what feminism believes about the world. Feminism tells you the only way you could ever feel safe is if every man in the world was incapable of harming women -- and that's absurd! There will always be some number of people who are crazy and dangerous for whatever reason. We don't say that when someone commits murder, that means we have to "teach men not to murder." You're an adult. You have the right and ability to defend yourself. You can take responsibility for your own safety just like a man can. Feminism tells you you can't, feminism tells you you can't feel safe until men have entirely changed human psychology on your behalf.

The MHRM isn't just caring about men, it's identifying that feminism is incorrect about what it thinks, and the ways in which it's incorrect harm men more than they harm women, and that we should do something about that.

Electronic-Split-635 · 2024-04-10T19:38:24+00:00

All my life I've had to deal with sexism. Oh God. I call complete BULLSHIT ON THAT. 🙄 Stopped reading after that.

justanotherdude68 · 2024-04-10T04:06:19+00:00

All my life…

I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences. But ask yourself: how many boys have been sexually assaulted and just haven’t talked about it? I’m willing to bet that it’s A LOT more than you think. Boys just don’t talk about it nearly as often. I didn’t. I was ashamed of it for years, and my parents told me to stop lying when I told them. I know, anecdotal evidence isn’t evidence, but once I decided to be open with my experience I was blown away by how many men had been sexually abused as a child.

Males my age slut shame and belittle women…

As if women don’t do the same or worse to men, just in different categories? Women can be just as crass as men, they’re just not as willing to admit it.

Cant someone be both?

In its current iteration, feminism is not about equality. It’s about supremacy. When I see feminism at large advocate for equal parenting time, harsh sentences for false accusations of sexual assault, or the abolition of alimony, then I’ll change my opinion.

Generalize and bash women…

Men don’t have a lot of spaces left to just vent. I could go on and on in an angry rant about my ex wife, but it’s not like I genuinely wish ill on her. I’d just be venting frustration.

Doesn’t every normal person think this way?

No. Even if they did, a “normal person” isn’t making the rules society lives by. Refer back to my comment on custody and so on. Women’s issues get to be in the forefront of the societal discussion while men’s issues get no discussion; when was the last time you heard of a walk of testicular or prostate cancer? If normal people were against circumcision, it wouldn’t be so common. If “normal people” were against the courts being biased against men, they wouldn’t force men to take them to court for custody (another fun anecdote: the first question I got on the stand when I sued for custody was “did you ever rape her?” I got to drive 2 hours to babysit my child for 8 hours every weekend, if you’re curious).

why do you blame…

The people who hold power want to maintain that power by supporting the loudest voices, in this case, 4th wave feminism. Men can’t get shit done if the powers that be aren’t supporting them. Men are too busy, you know, being oppressed by that system. Feminists weren’t thrown in jail for advocating for equal rights, but men will definitely be thrown in jail for not paying child support.

And the politicians that won’t play ball with those voices don’t get elected. You can tell me “women don’t vote emotionally, they vote rationally, just like men” but we both know you’d be lying, as evidenced by the number of women that have made abortion their single voting issue. So the 20-year-old woman who is still sucking on mom and dad‘s teat living in an echo chamber gets to nullify the vote of a 40-year-old man who’s been around the block of time or two and has a pretty solid grasp of the real world implications of their decision by voting in the opposite direction, because of a single issue.

Dashing2026 · 2024-04-10T03:50:15+00:00

Because many emotional struggles men face stem from women, but they are never supported when talking about them.

If you're abused by a male it's perfectly fine to voice that opinion to the world, but vice versa is not tolerated whatsoever.

Essentially, men today are abused economically by capitalism, and culturally by feminism.

Feminism in the early 20th century was concerned with granting women the basic needs to establish a life of dignity. Today's feminism is nothing more than a culture to blame, harass, abuse, and demonize men over all possible chances.

For more information: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7MkSpJk5tM&pp=ygUYdGhlIHJlZCBwaWxsIGRvY3VtZW50YXJ5

Make-TFT-Fun-Again · 2024-04-10T07:02:19+00:00

Feminists don’t want anything to do with this movement because feminists see rights as a zero sum game. When men gain, women lose and vice versa.

They will never care about men’s issues and it’s time to stop pretending that feminism is about equality, it’s just a women’s rights movement and always has been.

The tactic has just been to inflate women’s issues using lies, damn lies and statistics.

Meanwhile, they frame men’s problems as something they purely do to themselves and then argue for equality from there.

Pretty disgusting but again, if you factor how feminism is purely to advance women no matter what it makes sense.

IceCorrect · 2024-04-10T12:00:40+00:00

I've seen some data that on twitter more women than men would slutshame, it was close to 50/50, but still say that only men are doing this is naive. I've seen women said it themselves on post about "toxic femininity". Also women love to bring someone sexuality to shame them with incel, gay or "small dick energy".

Men usually don't complain when they can't do something because they are men, that's why maybe you believe only women hear this or maybe you believe if person is not qualified for job, it's not real reason and real reason is their gender.

"Men problems could be solved by men" - thats why we have this sub, because every men know that women would never help them no matter how much you would hear that "feminism is for men too".

Title	Help me understand
Author	VKTGC
Upvotes	0
Comments	80
Date	April 10, 2024 2:36 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1c0ars7/help_me_understand/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/help-me-understand.1514588 https://theredarchive.com/post/1514588

Comments

Q: "Why should any female, especially female teenagers want anything to do with this movement in its current state?"

Q: "People on here don’t care about women being assaulted. I tried making a post on here about a men’s rights shelter but it wouldn’t let me idk."

A: "I agree with a lot of views. I mean, I think circumcision is abhorrent, I believe family court is in fact biased towards women, I do think men’s mental health should be taken seriously. But like, doesn’t every normal person also think this way?"

Q: "Yall hate feminists"