is there a subtle knowing that if men also became liberated, the culture would be completely screwed, not just half screwed as it is now?

2011-01-09T15:20:39+00:00

The culture already is completely screwed. Letting men be pretty can't possibly make matters worse. Hell, it might improve things once people loosen the fuck up.

zalery · 2011-01-09T08:08:57+00:00

All these posts are off-base.

But I hear ya brother.

http://www.ted.com/talks/tony_porter_a_call_to_men.html

mean0dean0 · 2011-01-10T04:24:18+00:00

Eddie Izzard has been championing clothing freedom for years--he constantly gets taunts of being gay, or prissy, or anything else other than a cool guy because he wears flashy clothes, high heels, and makeup onstage. Who ever said makeup was ONLY women's wear? The debauched Earl of Rochester would heartily disagree!

kloo2yoo · 2011-01-09T12:28:05+00:00

I'm part of "crowd 2" I guess. Honestly, there are wildly divergent views between liberal and conservative MRAs. We tend to gloss over that, because focusing on our differences only serves to undermine the power of the movement while it's in a weak position. Right now, we're struggling for people to even recognize that there are legitimate problems. Falling apart because we disagree over solutions to those problems will only undermine our efforts.

I have no doubt that there will be a split in the future and it will be along the liberal/conservative line...but right now, we need the strength which comes from unity. Once the MRM is more established...once it won't fall apart due to infighting, then we can segment and fracture, etc.

As to "clothing freedom", I'm the type of person who would be perfectly happy wearing exactly the same outfit every day for the rest of my life. I think our society is way too concerned with style, yet unconcerned with substance, and I believe the "clothing debate" is a reflection of that. I think you should be free to wear whatever the hell you want...but I will continue to view superfluous and overtly decorative clothing as being tacky and masturbatory (wrt both men and women).

Clothing is a tool we've turned into an ornament.

fishwish · 2011-01-09T05:42:10+00:00

Huh? You want to cross dress? Go ahead. No skin off my back. Plenty of people are doing it.

Fuck it. If the men's rights movement isn't going to give me more freedom, I'm fucking done with it and it's already obsolete. If it's just going to seek to continue to MAKE MEN OUT OF MALES, then the MRM is just the status quo in disguise. And i'm not dumb.

Uh, OK. You already rage quit. Fine with me too.

rantgrrl · 2011-01-09T05:58:24+00:00

Fuck it. If the men's rights movement isn't going to give me more freedom, I'm fucking done with it and it's already obsolete. If it's just going to seek to continue to MAKE MEN OUT OF MALES, then the MRM is just the status quo in disguise.

I see where you're coming from but there are two conflicting issues here.

1) Men should have more freedom to express themselves in terms of clothing.

2) Most men want to form an identity separate from that of women. Part of forming that identity seems to be restricting men to a 'uniform'.

Right now men don't seem to have a special identity just for them, something that they are seen as only being able to do. Women have this built in--gestation, lactation and by extension, child rearing. Men don't.

Even linguistically man refers to all human beings, male or female and I believe it has since before our era. Woman is a special category of man; men don't have a special category to themselves and may never have had one.

Now that women are taking over the positive aspects of the male role--that of provider--men aren't left with anything they can call their own. Either working for a positive identity by being a provider or a special category of 'man' equivalent to woman.

fondueguy · 2011-01-09T07:40:22+00:00

"If it's just going to seek to continue to MAKE MEN OUT OF MALES, then the MRM is just the status quo in disguise."

Um, can you give us some time to secure equal legal rights before we start having to chime in on skirts, for fuck's sake?

fondueguy · 2011-01-09T18:54:42+00:00

I see the idea your getting at and I noticed it myself too but your oversimplifying too much (you probably already know that).

For starters mra's will agree with anti Feminism on the basis of rights and privileges. They overlap on issues of increasing female accountability (false rape & DV), fathers rights & Marriage, help boys in school, and are against female quotas. Most of us either overlap on those issues or their views can support each other to some extent. So many times we take similar sides and highlight the same issues. Also don't confuse a social conservative for men's rights because their response is usually man up (down playing the problems and choices men face) and they don't help men apart from women. They also tend to victimized women as a whole no matter what.

Alot of anti feminists think that Feminism is about feminizing men which is the biggest misconception and one that someone has to understand to be an mra in my opinion. Sure to some extent we feminizing men/boys but you must understand that most Feminism is not about equality and not about treating men and women the same. Feminism exists from female privilege (pedestal and protection) and male dispositions (disposability and lack of learning male condition/self awareness). Anyone anti feminist who thinks Feminism is about equality (treating genders the same) the they are too deluded to be an mra and understand the ills of men and how it came about. This is something that isn't talked about much but a deeper understanding of men's rights means you can't go back to the 50's because even then men were not men (or free if you like). Watch Paul's The Plague of Modern Masculinity which basically says how "traditional" masculinity (male disposability, women's pedestal, male servitude) put us in this place at the expense of men. That's why we have terms like mangina, white Knight, and chivalry. In conjunction with the previous article you should read another heavyweight Zed The Three Laws of RoMANtics which talks about broad male disposability and woman worship.

I am an "equal opportunity" mra and am probably in agreement with you. Read my first comment at Feminism in China. The article is about a lack of identity in boys in feminist states which i agree with. But in my comment I disagree with the author and argue against his hidden assumption that men are defined by predetermined and obvious expressions. I instead argue that men only need male role models and male bonding to flourish as men. I say that men create meaning in the things they do not the other way around. I got alot of upvotes so I assume most agree.

Lastly these are two extremely valuable articles on what an mra is Dealing With The Reality On The Ground and an article about what Feminism really is Hybrid Feminism. (Basically a "socon" feminist or social conservative feminist isn't any different from a leftist feminist)

The last two articles are trully amazing to me and so many fellow mra's agreed about the truth of "hybrid Feminism".

aetheralloy · 2011-01-10T20:59:13+00:00

Is this a joke?

You can wear whatever you like. However there are always consequences.

If you dress in shitty torn clothes, you'll be treated like someone who dresses in shitty torn clothes.

If you dress in pants, you'll be treated like someone wearing pants.

If you dress in a skirt, you'll be treated like someone wearing a skirt.

That isn't the law, it is basic human nature. There is no law saying you can't wear a pink tutu in public, just don't expect to be treated like a masculine man... because you are sending out signals that you aren't interested in being treated like a masculine man.

AnnArchist · 2011-01-14T02:54:31+00:00

what the fuck are you talking about?

If a man wants to wear womens clothing, that is ok with me. If they want to wear a speedo, I'm fine with that.

Title	is there a subtle knowing that if men also became liberated, the culture would be completely screwed, not just half screwed as it is now?
Author	tsigolohcysp
Upvotes	5
Comments	53
Date	January 9, 2011 5:32 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/eytsa/is_there_a_subtle_knowing_that_if_men_also_became/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-there-a-subtle-knowing-that-if-men-also-became.1044509 https://theredarchive.com/post/1044509

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