Men and Personal responsibility

[–]stop_stalking_me 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]GIfuckingJane -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]William_F0ster 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

As a visitor here, I don’t really have a dog in this fight either, but I can’t help noticing how your comment and question don’t seem to be very clearly related to the previous guy’s.

Like you’ve said:

Mmm, not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Which one?

The part where he asks rhetorically "Men should just be quiet when they are falsely accused?”? Or the part where he says "Times are changing”?

Also, this question of yours:

Are you saying real victims of rape (men and women) should be silenced or shamed for speaking out?

Maybe I don’t get your argument, but when he asks "Men should just be quiet when they are falsely accused?” isn’t he just saying that a man accused of a crime should be allowed to defend himself in court against that accusation?

That seems completely reasonable for one thing, and for another I don’t quite get how a man defending himself in court against an accusation from someone else can have the effect of silencing or shaming a victim.

Actually, I think there’s a small problem with both of your assumptions - he seems to assume that we can know whether an accusation of rape is false before it’s been investigated or gone to court and you seem to assume that the accusation of rape is true before it’s been investigated or gone to court.

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]William_F0ster 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm don't see the reason to jump to the fact I must be advocating for women who cry rape and somehow this is fine.

OK that seems fair enough to a point, but to be fair to the other guy I don’t think the inference he made from your original comment was completely unwarranted. After all, you said:

… not too sure what you guys are about. But poking around here it seems like a lot of weird female hate... a lot of "unfair" court settlements and woman unfairly crying rape.

Your second example of "a lot of weird female hate” is "a lot of” (stories about) “woman unfairly crying rape”.

Even if it’s not what you intended to say, it’s not unreasonable of him (or anyone) to read that and assume that what you are saying is that it is irrational (“weird”) to have an apparent fixation (“a lot of”) on reports of men being falsely accused of rape and that doing this is misogynistic (“female hate”).

… the scales are tipped towards men raping as opposed to sick women just crying rape for attention

I don’t know enough about this to be able to say one way or the other, but again I don’t think that the other guy's asking "Men should just be quiet when they are falsely accused?” says anything about how often false accusations happen compared to real reports from victims, only that a man who is accused has a right to defend himself in court - which you agree with:

The law is in place to help protect both parties ...

That seems to me to be what u/MRA-automatron-2kb was getting at with that rhetorical question.

… hopefully with DNA evidence we can correctly come to the correct conclusions.

This is true but it doesn’t really cover the most contentious cases which seem to be the ones involving alcohol and/or an accusation against someone who was a boyfriend at the time - the DNA won’t make any difference because there is no argument there about whether sexual intercourse or activity took place, only whether it was consensual or not.

[–]GIfuckingJane 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

First of all, I really do appreciate you taking the time to make some really good points. I honestly am surprised that I do agree with some tenants of what you guys stand for. But let me clarify by what I meant with the weird female hate stuff. I read ( please give me time to find the source) that MRAs were pushing to legalize rape so women would be "forced" ( cough cough) into watching what they wear and who they interact with. Now, I'm not worried that any rational law marker is going to pass that, but it is disturbing that that idea even exists in this century. And man get raped too, something just as sick and fucked up. Plus you have a system of masculinity that is so uncomfortable at even dealing with the issue of male rape. I'm guessing none of you men live in a women free bubble (as much as you would like too) but don't you have daughters? Mothers? Some women who you connect too? Would you want someone hating her? Eh just my thoughts, but I am no expert.

[–]William_F0ster 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I really do appreciate you taking the time

Thank you for saying so and thank you too for being civil - discussions like this always go better when people are at least trying to be reasonable.

I read ( please give me time to find the source) that MRAs were pushing to legalize rape so women would be "forced" ( cough cough) into watching what they wear and who they interact with.

Although I’m in this sub right now, I’m not actually an MRA - but that sounds like such pantomime propaganda that I find that impossible to believe.

In fact, are you sure it wasn’t ISIS you were reading about? Making rape of so-called Kuffar (infidel) women legal and forcing women to dress ‘modestly’ sounds exactly like the kind of thing they are enforcing in Raqqa and wherever.

The idea that a bunch of Western guys arguing for fairer divorce settlements, increased access to children, an end to male circumcision, and making a case for proper legal procedures instead of informal college hearings to deal with serious allegations such as rape and sexual assault etc. seem a long, long way from trying to make rape legal.

And man get raped too, something just as sick and fucked up

A lot of posts on here seem to acknowledge this fact - in fact, sometimes they complain that they don’t think it gets enough recognition by the general public.

I'm guessing none of you men live in a women free bubble (as much as you would like too) but don't you have daughters? Mothers? Some women who you connect too? Would you want someone hating her?

Again, I’m really not an MRA, but I am a man and of course I have lots of women in my life - family, friends, colleagues - and of course I find it absolutely intolerable that they might be harassed or even worse.

But again, literally no one - unless we’re talking about ISIS - has ever put forward an idea for legalising rape or forcing women to dress modestly.

I bet if you find that source, it’ll turn out to be from someone who is either not an MRA or if they do identify as an MRA it’s either a parody or a joke that’s been taken out of context or else it’s the kind of MRA that other MRAs completely disown.

But I’m not really all that into this stuff so I’d be curious to see that source if you find it because maybe I’m wrong and they are like ISIS

[–]stop_stalking_me 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Ahhhh, that's Roosh, he's a total douchebag and has nothing to do with MRAs, not only does this movement want nothing to do with him Roosh has also stated he's not an MRA at all and even tried to make fun of them.

This guy is a total cunt to be sure, there was an event that he was planning in Canada where he said that and I was actually one of the people going around telling people not to go anywhere near the fucker because the moment they spotted one MRA that's all you'd see splattered all over the news. Sometimes the best solution to a problem like that guy is to do absolutely nothing and watch the two groups destroy themselves.

The feminists went with the 'Roosh is an MRA' angle anyway and was was funnier was that he even whined that no MRAs came to help him even after all this shit he said about the movement he seemed to think just because of his genitals someone would automatically back him and his bullshit up.

Be careful about what news stories you pick up, always look at multiple sources and perspectives because some of them will share information you didn't know about or others will put a spin on it as this one has, that site looks very much of the left wing and feminist variety, they like to lump people like Roosh, Red Pillers and MTGOW all in with anyone here so they can smear us.

[–]GIfuckingJane 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ah. See this is the problem with "movements". Like how Christianity split off into 1000 different sects, and you have your crazy snake handlers with your moderate, normal people kinda lumped into one religion. This is why I'm not affiliated with any one political party or organization. I personally like to learn some facts and try to form my own opinions about it. People who don't do that tend tend to enjoy sensationalizing things. Like painting all MRAs as evil, woman haters, or even that all equity wanting feminists as man haters. I see it as two extremes but with most people falling in the moderate center. Yes some women hate men, and some men hate women. But you guys, for the most part, are just trying to raise awareness to some injustices your personally facing. Don't ever let anyone tell you that's not okay. All abuse is wrong.

[–]Lethn2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I should point out that I'm an Anarcho-Voluntaryist not an actual MRA, I've been banned for being one, off the anti-capitalist Anarchism subreddit no less ( which is why I have taken quite a dislike towards anti-capitalists ) and most people you will find here are not die hard political activists either.

This is just a nice place to freely talk about gender and identity politics without the SJW ( Social Justice Warrior ) and Feminist crowd jumping down your throat every five seconds. They sometimes try like with the Roosh thing, but these people never win in an uncensored environment.

The thing to remember about MRM as a whole is it's a genuine movement as well as the general anti-feminist, pro-free speech political sphere, you will not find an organisational structure here and a bunch of people telling others what to do all the time, most real political movements are like that, feminism isn't a movement, it's very much part of the political establishment now.

[–]stop_stalking_me 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

So you think pointing out the fact there are women who falsely accuse men of rape or sexual assault to get their way is 'female hate'? I try to give newbie users a fair chance but we've had people come into this subreddit trying to deliberately provoke people and start shit before and no it isn't paranoid at all.

isn't that a direct reflection of some poor personal choices you have made?

There are men here who have posted they had fraudulent attempts by women to pressure them them to sign birth certificates without any DNA evidence proving they're the father. I'm definitely wondering if you're just trolling now because I don't know how you can equate posting up recorded court cases as 'female hate'.

The majority of people here are not saying 'all' women are doing this, in fact there are official statistics that detail domestic violence on exactly how many women are, you claim not to know what MRM is about yet you've certainly come here with some major preconceptions.

If you're finding users posting horrible shit about women, too bad, that's free speech, we don't ban people for saying bad stuff, people do regularly call them out on their bullshit though.

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I came to ask questions. Would you rather I came to some conclusion without engaging you guys in some sort of dialogue? I understand you must see your fair share of hate, or people assume your a hate group, but that's but thats why I'm here asking for some perspective. But some comments saying things like,"all women want is a man's money," or all women are sluts and whores ect seems to be rather hate-like. I'm new here, so I'm trying to figure out how to link to specific comments, so give me a day lol. I'm a woman, I'm in the military and med school. I wouldn't mind if my bf stopped working when I'm a doctor because I could support us easily. I don't know any such money grabbing women like this in real life...so I'm just here learning. Maybe I'm living in a protective bubble of good people? I'm willing to see what you guys are about. I'll make my mind up after.

[–]Lethn 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't know about linking but if you write ">" you can directly quote people and just copy and paste the text of the post if you write in their username people will be able to go and search for it.

I know the types of comments you're talking about and I still say you're cherry picking. It's a very common thing people do when looking at these types of groups and what's more annoying it's a common tactic political opponents like to use to make everybody here look bad.

Just because there are some socially conservative wankers and genuine sexists here doesn't mean everybody else is, it's called freedom of speech and most people here respect that no matter who's saying it. If you hate their ideas that much, then challenge them and counter their bullshit just like I do don't go moaning about it and try to smear everyone like I suspect you are doing because we won't call for their ban.

By the way, if you don't believe me, go to any feminism subreddit and watch how fast you get banned for asking basic questions about MRM without automatically going along with the man hating. It's because people here don't get banned for what they say that there will be stuff being said you don't like.

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the tip! Yeah, it's easy to brush off these types of hate comments as "crazy", but I think if I were you guys I would call them out. I totally agree with a lot of what you guys want; equality, understanding, fair treatment, but the hate speech makes it hard to take your movement serious. Unless this is just a safe place for you guys to vent, then whatever, yeah. I think if a MRA went to r/feminist and asked some questions he would probably get some shit ( as I have here) but I think most people there would like a discussion with you. I think you guys are pretty misunderstood and a few angry men are making you look bad. Just like a few angry feminists make women look bad.

I was talking about you guys last night and my bf opened up and told me he got beat/ scratched up and manipulated by his ex who gaslighted him into thinking it was HIS fault. He never told to the police (or me) because... well you know how that looks. He felt shitty for 4 years in that relationship and that makes me sick to my stomach. I think any feminist would be disgusted by that. How are you guys planning on changing social and political aspects on male abuse?

[–]Lethn 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

but I think most people there would like a discussion with you. I think you guys are pretty misunderstood and a few angry men are making you look bad. Just like a few angry feminists make women look bad.

No, trust me, the only reason those feminists will be nice to you is one, because you're a woman, those people in particular are man hating sexists of the highest order. Two you haven't had any real dicussions about any of the issues that they get extremely aggressive and arrogant on.

One of their biggest issues you've just touched on is the idea of your boyfriend getting physically abused by her ex. If you talk about that story to them and genuinely try to defend your ex and say that the woman was in the wrong, I guarantee you'll get banned.

I don't think you know as much about the feminist movement as you think you do, the feminism you and I have known from history is not the same one as today. Do you know anything about first, second and third wave feminism? They're all different things, third wave feminism is filled with man haters who are either borderline or self-admitted supremacists and that's what is in many universities and schools today.

The current third wave feminism is basically a weird off-shoot of anti-capitalist Marxism where they've crossed out class and put in gender, they even have a fucking hierarchy of victimhood which is all about putting women at the top and men at the bottom. For some odd reason though they've decided to include radical Islamists right at the top even though a lot of them are men but you get the idea.

I highly recommend actually, you watch some videos by Christina Hoff Sommers, she does a really good job of properly explaining what Feminism is about and she is a feminist herself, but a proper one, not the manhating crazies that are everywhere now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RNaspc5Ep4

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

ROFL! Every time that happens without fail :P Sorry, but we get so many people here saying "Oh they can't be 'that' bad" then they actually go over there and try to talk to them.

Nope, it's a very common problem and there are lot more people than you'd think fighting against them, of all sorts of ideologies and beliefs. Those people are a supremacist group who think that straight white men are the spawn of satan.

If you had introduced yourself as a man I also guarantee you would have been treated with much more hostility and been ejected immediately for even starting a topic here, I think they either have a bot or keep watch on users who visit this subreddit.

I'm reminded of when Jon Stewart talked about bullshit mountain with people like fox news. Well this is just as bad if not worse because these people actually have some real influence in politics and can ruin peoples lives if they know your identity. The real question now is, are you prepared to properly research and find out about the new even bigger bullshit mountain that is gender and identity politics?

I can totally understand being weirded out by this though and not wanting anything to do with it LOL there are some genuine lunatics about.

[–]GIfuckingJane1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]aesopstortoise 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EvilPundit[M] [score hidden] 10 years ago stickied comment (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]GIfuckingJane -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay I read it. It seems after reading that and other comments that blaming women for your woes is pretty counter productive to what you want. The whole courts favoring women is taken incorrectly from a statistic that shows most men don't want/fight for custody of their children. On the other hand I know women that don't want to work, want to take all their husbands money and complain all day. If we had equality then women like her ( sorry, she is a pathetic excuse for a human) would have to work, go to school or somehow become productive members of society. Women cant do that if they are blocked from going to med school (Patsy mink) or having meaningful work. Or not having access to birth control. Shouldnt we as a society push women harder? We can deploy and go to war now, so the whole male only conscription thing hasn't been relevant since Vietnam.

[–]EvilPundit 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AlwaysABride 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]GIfuckingJane -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Devastration 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]aussietoads 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]GIfuckingJane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, I have been on 2 deployments, Kuwait and Afghanistan. I am a flight medic, so no ground action but I saw a good amount of trauma. I finished air assault a few months ago, but you really need to train your body and mind to go through it. Its so easy to quit and drop out. It's easy to walk away when your getting smoked and your exhausted and hungry. But you learn to push through the pain so you can push through it on a deployment. 12 hour days and your exhausted? Fuck I did it and I lived. I can do it again. Now I'm in my second year of med school. I have to push everyday through mental exhaustion. I can apply that mentality to any end goal. That's what I learned. Mental toughness and resilience are not male traits. I know plenty of men who bitched out and pussied out. But I know women who got pregnant on deployment so they could leave. Gender doesn't matter. A bitch is a bitch in my book.

[–]aussietoads 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]HiberniaSon2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Men and Personal responsibility
Author	GIfuckingJane
Upvotes	0
Comments	37
Date	June 7, 2016 6:44 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4n0lje/men_and_personal_responsibility/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/men-and-personal-responsibility.947956 https://theredarchive.com/post/947956

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