~ archived since 2018 ~

The Guide to Nice Guys® in Comic Form

diggro

April 11, 2011

6 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/02/07/the-guide-to-nice-guys-in-comic-form/

Archived from /r/MensRights

r/MensRights is a community advocating for the social and legal equality of men and boys since 2008.

TheRedArchive is an archive of Red Pill subreddits and blogs. This page is our copy of the original post.

/r/MensRights archive

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

PDF TXT EPUB

Support the archive

Everything here was supposed to disappear. Banned subreddits, deleted communities, cancelled blogs — much of what is archived here survives nowhere else.

It stays free — no paywall, no account — for the next man who comes looking, the way it was free for you.

I pay for the servers, the storage and the bandwidth myself. If you want this record still standing in ten years, become one of the people who keeps it online.

Support the archive

Post Information

Title	The Guide to Nice Guys® in Comic Form
Author	diggro
Upvotes	6
Comments	21
Date	April 11, 2011 6:19 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gn7gb/the_guide_to_nice_guys_in_comic_form/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-guide-to-nice-guys-in-comic-form.1041149 https://theredarchive.com/post/1041149

Comments

[–]awkfoo 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]BolshevikMuppet 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Speaking as someone who was a "nice guy" for a long while before realizing that it's just as douchey to use being "nice" as a way to try to get into a girl's pants as anything else (and have henceforth simply tried to be a good person) I think we do it to ourselves.

Guys recognize that we can't compete in looks and money, and so try to compensate by being nice. But, we get wrapped up in it, and start to think of girls as single-issue voters (as it were) who are deciding solely based on "niceness". So, we see girls reject us, and go out with "jerks", and decide there's something wrong with them for not rewarding our niceness with sex. So we get bitter, and we get mean. We lash out, and start to think about crap like the "ladder theory", instead of recognizing the truth that (a) we weren't being nice, and (b) looks still count for something.

Really, though, if you approach relationships (friendships, especially) with women the same way you do men, you'll never be taken advantage of.

[–]rantgrrl 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BolshevikMuppet 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExpendableOne 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Speaking as someone who was a "nice guy" for a long while before realizing that it's just as douchey to use being "nice" as a way to try to get into a girl's pants as anything else (and have henceforth simply tried to be a good person)

Trying to be a good person to be a good person, simply because you've been told it's what you're supposed to be doing, really isn't all that different from trying to be a good person because you've been told that's what you're supposed to be doing for women(and, really, I doubt a part of you isn't hoping someone out there will see some value in your altruism). Not to mention, hating on other men or perpetuating negative misconceptions about nice guys, simply because it's the popular stance to have(especially amongst misandric women, who apparently have no reservations in demonizing male sexual interest), is kind of hypocritical.

Either way, letting yourself get convinced that heterosexual men are douchey for wanting sex, or even for trying to be nice in order to get it(which isn't really the case or that this is about but still something people do on a regular basis). There is nothing wrong with men looking to have sex and there is nothing wrong with men feeling that their altruism(inherent or as a result of their own conscious efforts), or any other forms of kindness, has value(and, by extension, feeling frustrated when people try to take advantage of that kindness or take it for granted).

In any case, lets not forget the fact that there are a lot of men out there who do genuinely possess those qualities, for their own sake(or, at the very least, do not possess them for the sake of women), and those men are still just as much devalued by these attitudes(or the gender roles they reinforce) and just as hurt by this type of type-casting as well.

So we get bitter, and we get mean. We lash out, and start to think about crap like the "ladder theory", instead of recognizing the truth that (a) we weren't being nice, and (b) looks still count for something.

People get hurt and frustrated when they are treated poorly, this is a natural reaction to the situation they are in. To ignore these issues and put the blame entirely on those men(who have a lot of other reasons to be hurt and frustrated; whether it's from the actual rejections themselves, the hypocrisy that supports them, the apathy get from those around them, the social aptitude that rejects own efforts to be good people or belittles their lack of masculinity or any other misconception or form of hostility/misandry associated with this entire anti-"nice guy" movement. Hell, the very fact that you could perpetuate this attitude that those men have nothing to be frustrated about, that there is nothing wrong with the way they are treated or that there is nothing wrong with the current social situation they are in would be reasons in of themselves for those men to feel frustrated.

Really, though, if you approach relationships (friendships, especially) with women the same way you do men, you'll never be taken advantage of.

I agree with that statement to some extent but, really, if men are the ones being taken advantage of in this particular context, why are you still putting the blame entirely and exclusively on them? This isn't just blaming the victim, this is vilifying their entire disposition.

[–]BolshevikMuppet 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Trying to be a good person to be a good person, simply because you've been told it's what you're supposed to be doing, really isn't all that different from trying to be a good person because you've been told that's what you're supposed to be doing for women(and, really, I doubt a part of you isn't hoping someone out there will see some value in your altruism)

I disagree. Being a good person because it's simply how people should act, is different from being a good person expecting a reward. I do good in the world insofar as I can because to not do so would be distasteful to me.

Not to mention, hating on other men or perpetuating negative misconceptions about nice guys, simply because it's the popular stance to have(especially amongst misandric women, who apparently have no reservations in demonizing male sexual interest), is kind of hypocritical.

It's not simply because it's popular. I've been fighting against "nice guys" and that label since college. I feel that being associated in the universal subconscious with guys who would use friendship as a foot-in-the-door for getting sex makes all men look bad. If men want sex, want sex, but don't try to manipulate and cajole women into it. If one of my male friends had become friends with me out of a secret desire to have sex with me, I would probably object just as much as a woman would.

Either way, letting yourself get convinced that heterosexual men are douchey for wanting sex, or even for trying to be nice in order to get it(which isn't really the case or that this is about but still something people do on a regular basis).

Wanting to have sex isn't douchey. Wanting to have sex and trying to get it through manipulation, becoming friends under false pretenses, and then getting pissy when the girl says "no" is douchey.
It happens all the damned time. I'm not that far removed from college.

There is nothing wrong with men looking to have sex and there is nothing wrong with men feeling that their altruism(inherent or as a result of their own conscious efforts), or any other forms of kindness, has value(and, by extension, feeling frustrated when people try to take advantage of that kindness or take it for granted).

It has value. The problem is that "nice guys" feel taken advantage of if their kindness isn't valued vis-a-vis sex. It's not being taken advantage of if a woman is your friend, and provides moral and emotional support to you when you need it in exchange for you proving moral and emotional support when she needs it. What frustrates me is this sense of "I'm not being valued if she doesn't want to ride my baloney pony".

In any case, lets not forget the fact that there are a lot of men out there who do genuinely possess those qualities, for their own sake(or, at the very least, do not possess them for the sake of women), and those men are still just as much devalued by these attitudes(or the gender roles they reinforce) and just as hurt by this type of type-casting as well.

All of my friends exhibit those qualities (kindness for the sake of kindness without expecting reward, true friendship) and have been rewarded for it with good relationships, respect, and kindness from others (both male and female). The only guys I see being hurt by this "type-casting" are the guys who are the douches. Furthermore, if men in general are hurt by association with those guys, the solutions are (1) get those guys to stop, or (2) disassociate ourselves. Trying to transform bad behavior to be defined as good behavior isn't a reasonable step.

People get hurt and frustrated when they are treated poorly, this is a natural reaction to the situation they are in

There's no poor treatment to a woman not being willing to "pay" for niceness with sex. The correct exchange is niceness for niceness, emotional support for emotional support. What "nice guys" get pissy about it "that bitch, I'm so good for her, and all she wants is the jerk", without acknowledging that (1) they never actually pursued her, and (2) in that woman's eyes, the "nice guy" is simply less desirable. She didn't lead him on, she didn't take advantage, she accepted the offer he gave, not realizing he had ulterior motives.

whether it's from the actual rejections themselves, the hypocrisy that supports them

It's not hypocrisy. If I say "I want a nice girl who's smart and funny", that doesn't make me hypocritical if I also want that girl to be someone I want to have sex with. It, especially, doesn't make me hypocritical to reject a girl who became friends with me under false pretenses.

the social aptitude that rejects own efforts to be good people or belittles their lack of masculinity

I would never accuse a nice guy of lacking masculinity, and I do agree that the attitude of "hurr, be a man, tell her you want to fuck" is somewhat silly.

Hell, the very fact that you could perpetuate this attitude that those men have nothing to be frustrated about, that there is nothing wrong with the way they are treated or that there is nothing wrong with the current social situation they are in would be reasons in of themselves for those men to feel frustrated.

That's a bit cyclical, isn't it?

I agree with that statement to some extent but, really, if men are the ones being taken advantage of in this particular context, why are you still putting the blame entirely and exclusively on them? This isn't just blaming the victim, this is vilifying their entire disposition.

Because I don't believe they're being taken advantage of. They offered friendship, and received friendship in return. The fact that they wanted an all-access pass to a girl's squish-mitten in addition isn't the girl's fault. If blame must be assessed (and I don't blame anyone), it is the fault of the person who was not honest about his intentions.

[–]ExpendableOne 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

One of the things I find really disheartening about this is when you find women blindly attacking men for either getting frustrated over not only being ostracized by women but ridiculed and vilified; or for getting frustrated with the mixed messages that they have been getting their whole lives(where, on one hand, you will find countless women criticizing/attacking men for being insensitive/inconsiderate and constantly reinforce the idea that they want nice guys; while, on the other, you have women perpetually rejecting those nice guys for having or making the conscious effort to adopt those qualities).

These are perfectly justifiable frustrations and, instead of looking at the issues, people would rather just blame those men or accuse them of being entitled(apparently, not enjoying being treated poorly makes you entitled), manipulative(typically, for the mere offense of having a sexuality), assholes(because, apparently, if you ever reach a breaking point after taking so much shit, you were never really nice in the first place) or misogynistic(typically, for thinking men's issues might matter too).

[–]BolshevikMuppet 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

where, on one hand, you will find countless women criticizing/attacking men for being insensitive/inconsiderate and constantly reinforce the idea that they want nice guys; while, on the other, you have women perpetually rejecting those nice guys for having or making the conscious effort to adopt those qualities

The problem is correlation and confounding variables. Nice guys look at being rejected, while girls go out with "jerks" and think about it as a binary system: girls want "jerks" even while claiming to want "nice guys". But, what if we're wrong? What if jerk versus nice guy is one aspect of the system, but not the entire system? What if nice is good, but can't overcome the "hideous CHUD" factor? What if women want nice guys who are also attractive? We trap ourselves in looking solely at one part of a complex system governing attractiveness, and so become embittered when the one trait we chose to make ourselves 'better' in isn't enough to win the day 100% of the time.

accuse them of being entitled(apparently, not enjoying being treated poorly makes you entitled)

If you were truly friends with a girl, you won't consider it being treated poorly for her not to reciprocate any romantic feelings. If you were in it to get into her pants, you're basically saying "I was nice, give me sex, or you're a bitch".

manipulative(typically, for the mere offense of having a sexuality)

Same as above. If you got into the relationship with honest intentions, you should be comfortable being rejected and being comfortable still being friends. Do all of your male friends have to want to ride your baloney pony for you to still hang out with them?

assholes(because, apparently, if you ever reach a breaking point after taking so much shit, you were never really nice in the first place)

It's only taking shit if you begin with the presumption that a woman is beholden to reward niceness or friendliness with sex, as opposed to rewarding it with friendliness. I'm seriously curious: do you demand your male friends suck you off, lest you feel taken advantage of?

[–]ExpendableOne 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

while girls go out with "jerks" and think about it as a binary system: girls want "jerks" even while claiming to want "nice guys".

That's kind of besides the point entirely or really missing the actual reason for the frustration(you are essentially attacking one aspect of a symptom, not the actual issue). Yes, obviously women are going to be attracted to attractive men or even masculine qualities(which is perhaps an issue in of its own in its reinforcement of gender roles) but there is still something especially frustrating with being told one thing and then dealt another. Women aren't just rejecting nice guys, or even putting them down, for other reasons; they are doing so specifically because they exert those qualities. The deception in of itself is justification enough for frustration but the level of apathy or disdain that those women typically show those men(or attempt to justify while doing so) is especially worrisome.

If you were truly friends with a girl, you won't consider it being treated poorly for her not to reciprocate any romantic feelings.

Don't confuse a friendship accompanied by sexual desires for a "false relation" based solely on sexual desires; this is about as insulting to men as you can get. While, again, being frustrated by the mixed-messages is in itself justified, this really isn't just about being offended for not having romantic feelings; this is more about the entire denouement towards those men and the underlying predisposition that dictates that they aren't even worth the romantic feelings in the first place.

Either way, specifically vilifying men because they want to have sex, is also about as misandric as you can get. Not all men are into meeting women just for sex(including men who are routinely labeled as "nice guys") but, even if they were solely interested in sex or adopting certain qualities for ulterior/sexual motives, that still doesn't justify the treatment they are routinely given. Besides the fact that this is something which women generally do a lot(whether for sex, relationships or anything else) without even facing anywhere near the same type of hostility; making a conscious effort to be a good, giving, benevolent or considerate person is still commendable in of itself(If not more so, as the effort is not only still there, but it is executed despite one's own intuitive reservations). Either way, there are really no reason to demonize male sexuality, or male sexual desires/intent, to this extent in the first place.

Do all of your male friends have to want to ride your baloney pony for you to still hang out with them?

That's kind of a ridiculous misnomer(not just because of the false premise it implies, as that is certainly not what this is about and there are plenty of "nice guys" which are fine with being just friends, but because of the difference involved with one's own sexual preferences). There's a difference between approaching or interacting people with romantic intent or platonic intent; and a homosexual/bisexual man would generally have the same predispositions when approaching other male friends. Again, this isn't simply about any single one rejection but the entire underlying list of issues which resulted in those rejections and how they are handled as well.

It's only taking shit if you begin with the presumption that a woman is beholden to reward niceness or friendliness with sex, as opposed to rewarding it with friendliness.

That's not even close to what I meant when I said taking shit and this had very little to do with expecting sex in return for altruism(though, really, the two are still quite often exchanged by men and women none-the-less). These are your own projections, and it is these types of false preconceptions which are so harmful in the first place(and a small part of the "shit" I referred to earlier).

[–]BolshevikMuppet 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

women aren't just rejecting nice guys, or even putting them down, for other reasons; they are doing so specifically because they exert those qualities. The deception in of itself is justification enough for frustration but the level of apathy or disdain that those women typically show those men(or attempt to justify while doing so) is especially worrisome.

I have literally never run into that. I've had many friendships with girls, and watched many more, and I've had my share of rejections (perhaps more than my share). Never once has it been "because" I'm nice. Admittedly, my position may be based on having spoken to girls who rejected me after the fact, and realizing that they were being polite with the whole "you're too much like a brother" thing.

Either way, there are really no reason to demonize male sexuality, or male sexual desires/intent, to this extent in the first place.

It's not a demonization, just a recognition that there are a hell of a lot of guys who expect to trade niceness for sex. My point is that if men are in the relationship for a friendship above all else (i.e there to trade friendship for friendship), the "sting" of rejection will be less. Furthermore, I don't accept that the treatment is that bad. I lived through it, about as bad as anyone could, and I never felt taken advantage of.

When you realize that girls are attempting to trade emotional support for emotional support, as opposed to the desired trade of niceness for sex, it doesn't feel as much ,ike a body-blow.

Again, this isn't simply about any single one rejection but the entire underlying list of issues which resulted in those rejections and how they are handled as well.

If you're distinguishing between your male and female friends on the basis that you want to sleep with your female friends, you're not being fair in the first place. Perhaps I've managed to keep a good group of friends, but when I've been rejected by a female friend, I've understood it was about the lack of physical attraction. At no point has being "nice" been a liability. And, I would wager, in most men's lives (if you control for physical attractiveness) the same holds true.

These are your own projections, and it is these types of false preconceptions which are so harmful in the first place(and a small part of the "shit" I referred to earlier).

These are the false and illogical conclusions I've seen pseudo-scientific guys make about why girls reject nice guys and date jerks. I have no objection to men wanting to sleep with their friends, but I want to ask of them to consider two things:

If you have a female friend you're not attracted to sexually, would you ever consider dating her? If not, why do you rate any better with the object of your affection?
When you claim you were rejected for being "too nice", is it possible you missed a confounding variable?

[–]Fatalistic -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]aetheralloy 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]felidaeus 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]aetheralloy 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]felidaeus 8 points9 points10 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]vintermann 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]vintermann 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExpendableOne 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mean0dean0 -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bobsutan -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Messiah -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link