Types of MRA’s

girlwriteswhat · 2018-02-02T17:59:34+00:00

The idea being that women are bad and will divorce rape you, by making claims of abuse, take your kids and money, and but you in jail for a crime you didn’t commit.

The idea is not that women are bad. It's that women can be bad, can do bad things and can be motivated by bad intentions.

Such a woman can and sometimes will do all of the above, and the system will assist her in doing so. In fact, the system (or aspects of it) at times will actively encourage her to do so. I've spoken to more than one woman who, when they divorced, described having a lawyer on one side of her and a social worker on the other, urging her to apply for a temporary restraining order.

"You don't even have to say he hit you, just that you're worried he might harm you or the kids. The judge will order him to stay away from you and the kids, and by the time it's all sorted out months from now, you'll have de facto custody of both the kids and the house. At that point, it's just a matter of rubber stamping it."

One of the most awful things about this situation is that men are not provided any kind of education, formal or otherwise, regarding how to identify women who might be inclined to do this. A large proportion of the women who do this have borderline traits, if not full-fledged borderline personality disorder.

The problem with this is that these types of women initially exhibit behaviors that are often extremely attractive to men--passion, intensity, hypersexuality. They cultivate extremely intense emotional bonds with men... almost like a Romeo and Juliet level of desperation. Men get sucked in, and are either too blinded by their emotions to see the red flags, or they have never had these red flags explained to them. And it doesn't help that such women, like male abusers, are always on their best behavior right up until they have you locked down. It's only when they know you won't or can't leave--when they have leverage of some sort (emotional, financial, a child) they can bring to bear--that they begin to torture you.

We educate young women on how to spot red flags in potential partners--how to identify certain behaviors that might indicate an abusive personality in a man. We go out of our way to tell women what behaviors on the part of men constitute abuse. We don't really do this for men.

In fact, the idea of a man judging even a specific woman's character, let alone a more generalized "female nature", is actually kind of taboo. Women are to be accepted as they are. And even when we ARE put to the task of judging female behavior, we are much less likely to view identical behavior as abuse when it's a woman doing it to a man, rather than the reverse. This even applies to psychologists, who were presented a list of abusive scenarios randomized by gender. They were 50% more likely to describe any situation as abusive if the man was doing it to the woman than the other way around.

We do nothing to help men avoid or protect themselves from toxic women, and we have a system that has been weaponized for the benefit of such women.

I know things like that can happen as court systems seem to be lenient towards women, but those kinds of ideas of fear and anger towards women I feel are detrimental toward the men’s rights message.

I'm going to use an analogy.

Rape of women by men has always been illegal. Sexual violation of women ("taking advantage of a woman") evokes a significant amount of social censure in addition to potential legal sanctions. Our system is not perfect by any stretch, but these types of violations are criminally punished when possible and considered a social evil.

Would you criticize a woman for fearing men if our society condoned male sexual violation of women?

If instead of punishing you for, say, having sex with a passed out coed and then posting the pictures online, the justice system gave you access to uniformed officers who would hold her down so you could more easily rape her? Who would then defend your absolute right to circulate the photos? Who would then arrest your victim for expressing anger at what you did, because oh my goodness, she's angry and therefore she might harm you, when you've done nothing wrong? Where there's no legal recourse whatsoever for her because what you did isn't even considered morally wrong or civilly actionable, let alone criminal? Where, in fact, the justice system was set up to punish her and reward you?

What if, in this hypothetical society, only 25% of men would do such a thing? What if only 10% would ever do such a thing? What if just 5% of men would take advantage of the system and rape women with impunity?

If we lived in THAT society, even if we knew that only 5% of men would take advantage of it, would you be criticizing people for warning women to not be alone with men? To not put themselves in situations where they'd be vulnerable to men? To avoid being alone with men at all costs?

The reality is, we don't live in that society. We live in a society that condemns the sexual violation of women, both socially and legally. And we STILL see people giving this advice to young women. We still see people posting memes about men and rape, saying, "here's a bowl of m&ms. Only 10% are poisoned. Go ahead and eat a handful."

The society we DO live in is one where the legal system will hold a man down and let an abusive woman have her way with him, reward her for her behavior and even punish him for expressing any discontent over the situation because he's angry and therefore dangerous. And even when this incredibly lopsided system can actually be compelled to admit that it has facilitated an injustice by a woman against a man the system will often still refuse to stop rewarding her, let alone punish her for what she did.

Until that system is brought into some kind of balance, yes, I'll be advising my sons to be very careful regarding the women they associate with, and the ways they associate with them. It's not that all women are awful. It's that our system not only does nothing to protect men from awful women, it actually rewards those women.

splodgenessabounds · 2018-02-02T13:25:25+00:00

one of the big ones advocating for men to stay single and avoid marriage and having children.

Just to reinforce something that's already been pointed out, that's more of a MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) POV; certainly some in the MRM are of that view, but it's not fundamental principle.

I know things like that can happen as court systems seem to be lenient towards women, but those kinds of ideas of fear and anger towards women I feel are detrimental toward the men’s rights message.

As a newcomer (and presumably someone who's not gone through the divorce/ family court/ child custody wringer), you will inevitably come across opinions and experiences you don't agree with/ don't understand. The point here is to stop, read more and think - walk a mile in some other poor sod's shoes, if you like. Even without the bias of the family courts and the support networks toward women (especially mothers), divorce and separation from your children (often against your will and everything you've worked for) is painful - consequently, when men who've gone through such an ordeal find an outlet (such as this sub) it's entirely predictable and human that they will express anger, frustration, upset and a good deal of ill-will to their ex and often to women in general. But given some time and given honest, thoughtful contemplation, most will say they don't hate all women, just their ex.

So, yes, there is inevitably a lot of heat and anger from those who've been run ragged by their ex and the whole divorce/ custody circus, but almost none of it is hatred of women.

I’m just wondering what kind of people are here, are you here trying to give voice to issues ignored by the media and people as a whole. Or are you hating on women.

What do you want people to say here? If you really are interested in an intelligent answer to that, your only recourse is to read on with an open mind.

mgm-survivor · 2018-02-02T13:30:53+00:00

I think your questions are great, thanks for asking them. There are lots of diverse opinions, but overwhelmingly there is a rational/practical approach to relationship dynamics. It’s like a splash of cold water to the face from time to time, in a world that grows so crazy every day that it feels like I must be hallucinating.

Personally, I am left-leaning. I care about climate change, and gay marriage. With gay marriage legal, that’s about all what is left of their platform that appeals to me. Economically, I’m old enough to have seen that most democratic platforming is a stop-gap to distract people from real problems. Example, crying about a statue of a person, as a “look over there” while I take all this money, and ignore the maintenance of the subways that’s grown so bad that every person who has ridden them more than 5 years is walking with a cane, or worse... anyway.

I think men are trampled over by society. They are held to counter-biological expectations, and HUGE double standards on a daily basis. Men have penises, and they are great. I have cast out the guilt imposed by a society shaming me for having it.

I consider the fact that it’s legal to mutilate the genitalia of infant males to be so atrocious that I cannot understand how any human can care for something as asinine as “female voting” while happily accepting the legal hacking up and symbolic castration of a gender at birth, for fuck sakes.

I’m just one person here, I likely do not represent an average consensus, and may even be an outlier, I am my own person. Welcome.

Edit: platform his = platforming is

BlockNotDo · 2018-02-02T16:52:34+00:00

I disagree with greatly, one of the big ones advocating for men to stay single and avoid marriage and having children.

The idea being that women are bad and will divorce rape you, by making claims of abuse, take your kids and money, and but you in jail for a crime you didn’t commit.

I think you're misunderstanding what you're reading.

This isn't about hating women and not being able to trust women. It is about a legal system that will allow a woman to fuck a man over if she is so inclined. It isn't about not marrying women at all. It is about not marrying women while the current legal system remains in place.

Let's say that only 1% of women are the type who would "divorce rape you, by making claims of abuse, take your kids and money, and but you in jail for a crime you didn’t commit". It's like playing Russian Roulette with 100 chambers but only one bullet. Are you willing to accept those odds? Most guys are. But most guys have never had the legalities of marriage explained to them either, and they don't know that they're playing Russian Roulette.

imbecile · 2018-02-02T13:35:55+00:00

Avoiding women and marriage may seem too extreme to you, but I'm not exaggerating when I say most men I have known a little better have been destroyed by the women they wanted to build a life with.

In all the ways you have mentioned short of being accused of crimes they didn't commit.

No need for a breakup even. I have seen a virile, brilliant, funny man devolve into sad isolated husk over decades of being married. And that's the successful marriage, of which the other successful marriages I know are less extreme versions.

Juan_Golt · 2018-02-02T13:56:37+00:00

Women are not the problem. The problem is the gender bias built into policies and practices. There are certainly people who show up here who are angry at women, or contain bitterness over a woman harming them, but that rarely motivates long term participation in the MRM. You have to take a longer view, and realize the problem isn't 'women' but how the society views men.

If fathers don't have equal parenting rights, it's not women's fault. It's not even that one women's fault for taking advantage. I don't expect reasonable people to give up advantage in a custody dispute just for the sake of equality. It would be noble if they renounced their advantages, but I understand why they don't.

Conversely, there are people who organize to fight against equal parenting rights, and they use every smear they can to stymie progress. These people are misguided by an ideology the presents men as all powerful controlling oppressors, and that any concession towards parenting equality is giving up ground to the "abuser's lobby".

Which is why you'll see the MRM is mostly about fighting against the bad policies that impact men negatively. These bad policies are often built upon misleading/biased statistics. Stats driven by an ideology that starts with the idea that all problems are male, then merely seeks data to confirm the stated conclusion.

hixidom · 2018-02-02T20:34:28+00:00

It's probably accurate to say that all MGTOW are MRA but that most MRA are not MGTOW. So sure you're going to see some perspectives on here from people who have sworn off women, but that is a more specialized view that isn't part of MRM at its core.

Personally, I'm here simply to gawk at the travesties of news and statistics that pop up in these crazy times. I have a gf. We are both STEM PhD students. I also like the KIA sub.

hahahitsagiraffe · 2018-02-02T22:50:53+00:00

I'm just here because nobody else will take the complaints you see on this sub seriously. Like, honestly, I'm probably a walking-talking parody of your "SJW" stock character in real life, but the truth is that I just want everything to be fair for everyone. I'm naive like that.

So, yes, I don't like that women's health problems aren't taken as seriously by doctors. And, absolutely, I agree that minorities are the victims of an inherent bias when they're looking for employment. But I also feel that men are given their own basket of very serious issues, with one major caveat - nobody's fixing theirs.

Women are speaking out, Latinos are gaining ground, even such small groups as trans people have a significant and well-respected platform. It's all under this amazing umbrella of solidarity, and hot damn is it a great step. Really, truly. But when someone tries to bring up an issue affecting mostly men? They laugh. They jeer. They tell you it's not a problem. They tell you it's not as important. They accuse you of defending monsters.

I hate it with a burning passion. So I'm here.

EricAllonde · 2018-02-02T11:38:06+00:00

one of the big ones advocating for men to stay single and avoid marriage and having children.

That's MGTOW, not men's rights.

It's easy for people to be confused, since feminists are doing their best to muddy the waters. Clearly feminists see MRAs as a threat in a way that they don't view MGTOWs, red pillers and the rest. So feminists deliberately conflate the other groups with MRAs. Their goal is that any time any man does something bad, feminists will claim he's an MRA in order to try to smear the men's rights movement.

The result has been confusion for the general public, but that's gradually starting to clear as the men's rights movement becomes better understood, and feminist lies about the MRM are being exposed.

The idea being that women are bad and will divorce rape you, by making claims of abuse, take your kids and money, and but you in jail for a crime you didn’t commit.

It's less a belief that every woman would definitely do that to you and more an acknowledgement that any woman could, if she chose to, thanks to the very biased courts, the Duluth model used to train police (thanks for that, feminists) and our gynocentric society. Those things together make marriage into a game of Russian Roulette for men: if you're unlucky enough to marry the wrong woman, you're completely fucked. The best term I've seen for it is "zeroed out".

I know things like that can happen as court systems seem to be lenient towards women, but those kinds of ideas of fear and anger towards women I feel are detrimental toward the men’s rights message.

Men are entitled to protect themselves from the very real risk of being utterly destroyed, and they're also entitled to discuss this issue with other men. Our society is so gynocentric, so used to putting women up on a pedestal of perfection, that it reacts to even indirect, implied criticism of some female-related things like marriage as "hatred of women". It isn't. Women are people just like men - some are good, some are bad and it's entirely reasonable to discuss both types.

You won't find much support for your tone policing in this sub. We see it constantly, not least of which from feminists who drop by to lecture and harangue us about proper behaviour, etc etc.

Or are you hating on women.

No.

saladbowlthrow · 2018-02-02T13:57:22+00:00

Think of men's rights as the male equivalent of women's rights. Then, you have subgroups and other movements that are derived from it, like feminism being a type of women's rights movement, we have MGTOW as a type of men's rights movement. Personally, I don't like MGTOW at all because frankly they're rampant with sexism, and their very ideology is based on the idea that women will hurt men so much that it's better to avoid them. Obviously that's not realistic, but it is what it is.

The beliefs you're describing are not a part of men's rights in the fundamental ideas and beliefs, but they are part of MGTOW, in fact they are exclusively the MGTOW beliefs. Think of it as how TERFs are part of feminism. They aren't representative of all feminism or the core feminist beliefs, but they are a part of feminism as a whole. MGTOW is our equivalent, they're like incels quite frankly.

Men's rights as a core belief is focused on men and men being treated unfairly, often compared to women. It has never been (as far as I know anyway) about keeping traditional roles for each sex, or giving men more control over women.

One big difference I notice between feminism and men's rights is that feminism will say "If you help women, you'll help everybody!" because they think everything negative that effects men is a side effect of the harm people cause to women.

Men's rights does not advocate for women's rights, we are not the women's rights movement, but when we advocate for something that does effect both genders, we do hope that it's changed to benefit men AND women. For example, when feminists got genital mutilation banned, they exclusively wanted it banned for women and many wanted male circumcision to be legal still. If men's rights can protect the anonymity of accused rapists or other criminals, we won't demand that only MEN are given anonymity, we demand that everybody is given anonymity. The reason we would want it is still because of the way it effects men (again, still a men's rights movement) but the issue is not just about men.

Mr_MRAnarchist · 2018-02-02T14:26:48+00:00

are you here trying to give voice to issues ignored by the media and people as a whole. Or are you hating on women.

Some of us fall into column A, and some fall into column B. And there are those of us that do a bit of both. We are not an either/ or type of group. We are all individuals and some will choose a different path then others.

Most of us will be just fine hating on a specific woman for doing terrible things to a man/ boy. We generally don't hate on women for just being women, but for the things that they do.

BlockNotDo · 2018-02-02T16:59:45+00:00

what kind of MRA’s are here civil rights activists or women haters, let me know.

As you read and learn, be careful to note the distinction between women and feminists. They are not the same group of people. You may see some hate for feminists here. You'll see much less (but probably more than none) hate for women.

xNOM · 2018-02-02T20:53:34+00:00

Maybe you should spend more time discussing facts instead of engaging in identity politics virtue signalling bullshit.

eightgaydiamonds · 2018-02-07T13:57:30+00:00

If the mans arent polite enough we should ostracize them? You are a feminist trying to divide the movement.

Title	Types of MRA’s
Author	starcraft_al
Upvotes	8
Comments	22
Date	February 2, 2018 11:08 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7uqm10/types_of_mras/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/types-of-mras.1179720 https://theredarchive.com/post/1179720

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