Question to TRP about some glaring logical inconsistencies I and others have noticed.

[deleted] · 2014-05-06T19:57:44+00:00

the most obnoxious people are always the ones who put their ego & identity in to it.

When I saw someone call another user "Brother" unironically in /r/AlreadyRed, I decided I was done browsing.

It's the blind leading the blind nowadays with quite a few not having real reference experience, just jerking each other off about how dumb women are.

Bet money, the loudest people have the most mediocre success and don't practice what they preach.

Akodo · 2014-05-06T21:51:13+00:00

Yet another horrendously disjointed, ad hominem-packed BP post that violates rule 4. Among all of the recent BP posts here, this one is probably the most atrocious of them all. There's honestly nothing here to debate. At the very least, compartmentalize and summarize your ad hominems for us. I'm honestly waiting to encounter the first BPer with an an understanding of standard debating (as opposed to the post-modern feelz fest).

Well shit...That ended up longer than I intended. But yea, if you could explain any of that to me, in a logically consistent manner, that'd be great.

OK, take a breath. Now another one. Relax.

Now I want you to go back and read this travesty. Slowly. Let it sink in that if this were a debate, you would have provided NOTHING other than shaming language and false assumptions. Demanding a logical response to a mental diarrhea of a diatribe is absurd.

I will attempt to address a few issues/questions in your post that are not based on entirely false premises.

The target audience of TRP, especially on Reddit, is a guy in the 20-25 range that's had struggles with girls or has had a girl wrong him in some way.

No, the target audience is men. The rest is a false BP stereotype.

what's exactly so harsh about [TRP]?

The narratives many have been fed throughout their lives from their parents, BP friends, authority figures, books, TV shows, movies, music, etc. about how relationships and attraction work are false. This can be startling for some who expected to find their unicorn and have a dream marriage.

[A bunch of mischaracterizations of TRP]

Trying to summarize it accurately requires more than a few sentences, but OP's summary is laughably off. TRP stresses self-improvement as a general philosophy, with the added benefit that one starts placing themselves in a position where they can build strong friendships with like-minded people and attract the interest of better quality women. Compare this with the losing strategy many people nowadays prefer of a placating/supplicating approach to gaining friends and relationships.

There's no revenge fantasy involved despite the adamant but misinformed claims of BPers on another post on this sub a month back. Part of moving on is letting go of any negative emotions associated with past failures. This is a core component of outcome independence and abundance mentality.

If TRP is true, why doesn't everyone follow and take the "easy" route?

It's not easy. Self-improvement requires work. Earning and commanding respect requires work. For some people, it's easier to never try and expose yourself to having your feelings hurt or to merely settle.

Some have been indoctrinated with warped views on how relationships work. The worst of them are so dependent on this framework that they get upset when reading anything that goes against it rather than thinking critically about it.

The anecdote about that Megalomaniac guy disproves TRP

No.

Look how if TRP is mentioned in another sub, TRP'ers swarm in trying to defend it with the debate ability of a down syndrome toddler.

A TRP mod posted about not caring whenever RP is mentioned on other subs, and the overwhelming majority agree (so no swarms, sorry). The few TRPers who, despite being told not to engage BPers because of their propensity to debate like a down syndrome toddler, earnestly try to engage another community are met with "hurr durr you post on TRP, [shaming language]" responses. Just look at your own post. Dear Lord, the irony of it all.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-05-06T20:26:59+00:00

Most of these aren't logical inconsistencies. Just sounds like a long list of rehashed complaints or ridicule.

And that those same girls who wronged them today, will be crawling, begging for them in the future. You couldn't write a better happy ending / revenge fantasy if you tried.

The revenge fantasy you're complaining about is either fantasy (as you've identified it), fluff, or words of inspiration (not very nice to women, but words of inspiration to the target nonetheless). No one is saying things like, "51%+ of men will have their revenge fantasy fulfilled." As ridiculous or insulting those words may be to you, they're not necessarily logically inconsistent.

Look how if TRP is mentioned in another sub, TRP'ers swarm in trying to defend it with the debate ability of a down syndrome toddler.

Just goes to show how different they are. From what I've seen the most popular an upvoted responses on these matters is to simply ignore and not even bother debating others on these subjects. Whether that is right or not is another matter, but it certainly does show that the behaviour you're describing isn't exactly encouraged.

Your sub is ostracized and laughed at non-stop. How can that be happening if your members are charismatic and leaders? It's just a giant mess of contradictions and butthurt.

How many people actually claim to be charismatic leaders? I see far more self-loathing and people decrying how beta they've been. It used to be quite often that people would make threads about how they're backsliding into "beta-behaviour", but I think the mods have been deleting those posts now.

Akodo · 2014-05-07T03:16:01+00:00

The target audience of TRP, especially on Reddit, is a guy in the 20-25 range that's had struggles with girls or has had a girl wrong him in some way. And the TRP is supposedly some "harsh truth" that shows them the reality of the world. But if you think about it, what's exactly so harsh about it?

It's harsh because it refutes the fantasy of finding "your soulmate" which a lot of guys are hoping for.

You're telling a bunch of dudes who've had some variety of issues with women that there's these relatively simple steps that they can follow to become more attractive. That their best years are still ahead of them (That SMV graph that keeps showing up), and that those girls, who didn't give them the time of day, are coming up on the point where they're past their prime.That women are inferior to men in a variety of metrics that are pretty much what you'd expect a guy who doesn't think he's physically attractive would put a tonne of value on. And that those same girls who wronged them today, will be crawling, begging for them in the future. You couldn't write a better happy ending / revenge fantasy if you tried. Seriously, for a guy that's not getting any now that sounds like the fucking jumpoff.

You're concluding that TRP is a fantasy creared to sooth the ego's of low value men.

However TRP insists that you have to lift, dress nice, get your finances in order and sack up and bear the pains of life. These are not features of a delusional fantasy, but core tenants of TRP. Anything resembling a revenge fantasy is coincidencendtal

Even more so, if women are so hypergamous as you claim, wouldn't they want more "Alphas" to be on the prowl? Wouldn't you like it if the pool of people you found attractive grew like crazy? To them, shouldn't it just be even more dick that they, in the reality you've constructed, can't get enough of?

You don't understand female sexual stratergy as red pill describes it. Women seek beta men too, for their resources. Where as they seek alpha's for social status and validation, as well as a succumbing to natural desires I.e. "romance" as well as a dread of missing out and a deep subconscious requirement for good genes. Yet they are still very driven to acquire beta resources.

TRP, if it were true, would be the easiest win/win for everyone involved. So why is it marketed as some harsh truth? Why is it when people bad mouth it you blame it on jealousy or some nebulous "feminist agenda". If what you've promised is true, shouldn't everyone be jumping on that train with gusto? To a guy that's not doing well with girls you've pretty much gave him the key to a chest of gold, but instead of opening it, the majority of guys seem to be throwing that key away and laughing at the person who gave it to them. Shouldn't that be a sign that something is amiss? Shouldn't a community (Reddit) that's stereotyped as forever alone neckbeards be welcoming you with open arms and confetti? So why is it that outside of a select few insular communities you all are shunned like pariahs? Logically, that just doesn't make sense if TRP was true.

Red pill is terrible for women as it takes away sll your leverage in power when it comes to relationships.

A bunch of guys who have the ability to manipulate you while simultaneously being unaffected by anything you say or do if they desire?

Women usually have the power in the relationship, red pill takes that away from them, the uncertainty makes them uncomfortable.

As for men, white knighting is caused by 1. Beta sexual stratergy (agree with the women and they will like me!) 2. Has engrained itself into their sense of nobility and honor, which I see as feminist brain washing.

On top of that, look how much posters there cling to this hope that they can be "Alpha" but then look how even at the slightest knock, that armour completely falls off. Look how easily I got that Megalomaniac guy on the defensive, look how quickly he was crying about "muh downvotes" after a single one. Look how if TRP is mentioned in another sub, TRP'ers swarm in trying to defend it with the debate ability of a down syndrome toddler. Even better is when TRP/PUA guys try to "AMOG" your table at a bar/club; It's so easy to throw them off their game and leave them as an insecure husk of the wanna-be alpha they once were. Shit, even just look at the path your community is going. You look down on women for sleeping around, yet it's championed for men. Look how you bitch about "shit tests" yet the newest rage on that sub is "Sitch tests". Look how you bash women for being all emotional and incapable of logic, yet you cling to anecdotes, misinterpreted science or straight up pseudoscience. You've become a carbon copy of the thing you hate, which in my opinion didn't even exist in the first place. How does that make any sense? How is any of that "Alpha"? Your sub is ostracized and laughed at non-stop. How can that be happening if your members are charismatic and leaders? It's just a giant mess of contradictions and butthurt.

Okay this is just a long winded dribble of your built up resentment and anger.

Well shit...That ended up longer than I intended. But yea, if you could explain any of that to me, in a logically consistent manner, that'd be great. Because I honestly don't get it, and it's really hard to respect your community because of those flaws I see. If you don't have the answers, x-post this into TRP maybe one of them will, but honestly, I kinda doubt it.

Most of this was just a vent and a rant, I think most of the actual relevant points come from a misunderstanding of RP theory.

For instance we know women are better at some things, men aren't better at everything. Women want betas too, they want the alphas dick and the betas money, time and validation.

hyperrreal · 2014-05-06T20:26:25+00:00

The target audience of TRP, especially on Reddit, is a guy in the 20-25 range that's had struggles with girls or has had a girl wrong him in some way. And the TRP is supposedly some "harsh truth" that shows them the reality of the world. But if you think about it, what's exactly so harsh about it? You're telling a bunch of dudes who've had some variety of issues with women that there's these relatively simple steps that they can follow to become more attractive. That their best years are still ahead of them (That SMV graph that keeps showing up)

TRP's target audience is just men interested in improving themselves and having more sexual success. A lot of contributors seem to be married, or middle aged. As for the SMV and sexual market stuff, we can debate that, but you are not really offering much of a reason to reject it here. I would agree that it could seem like 'revenge fantasy,' and no doubt some treat it that, but that doesn't say anything about the accuracy or usefulness of the content.

Seriously, for a guy that's not getting any now that sounds like the fucking jumpoff. [2] Even more so, if women are so hypergamous as you claim, wouldn't they want more "Alphas" to be on the prowl? Wouldn't you like it if the pool of people you found attractive grew like crazy? To them, shouldn't it just be even more dick that they, in the reality you've constructed, can't get enough of?

The problem here is your assumption that what drives people sexual behavior is their conscious mind. As well as just a basic misunderstand of the argument. Women would want 'real' alphas aka people who have the traits they look for naturally. They are repulsed by PUA, TRP, etc because they claim to be able to teach losers how to seem cool, awesome, and hot, and eventually be cool, awesome, and hot. One thing women don't want is a bunch of posers wasting their time.

TRP, if it were true, would be the easiest win/win for everyone involved. So why is it marketed as some harsh truth? Why is it when people bad mouth it you blame it on jealousy or some nebulous "feminist agenda". If what you've promised is true, shouldn't everyone be jumping on that train with gusto?

Self-improvement of any kind doesn't work like this first of all. Ton's of people desperately need psychotherapy for example, and the people who need it the most are usually the most resistant to it. They see it as fake, a scam, a waste of time, meaningless psychobabble, etc. Really they are afraid of facing the internal pain that drives their dysfunction.

For a complex set of reasons, many men grow up idolizing women and putting them on a pedestal. This becomes a deeply engrained ego-fiction that usually supports a codependent mindset. Abandoning this and facing oneself is not easy. Change is not easy. Let me ask you this. Obesity is a huge problem in American (no pun intended). Why don't people just hit the gym daily and cut out soda and fast food? I mean it's a win/win right? Lose weight, look better, live longer, feel better, etc. Except that people don't because changing your diet is hard. Because the pain of lifting and doing cardio 5 times a week is hard. Your argument doesn't prove TRP is scam anymore than what I just constructed proves fitness is a scam.

On top of that, look how much posters there cling to this hope that they can be "Alpha" but then look how even at the slightest knock, that armour completely falls off. Look how easily I got that Megalomaniac guy on the defensive, look how quickly he was crying about "muh downvotes" after a single one. Look how if TRP is mentioned in another sub, TRP'ers swarm in trying to defend it with the debate ability of a down syndrome toddler.

This whole point isn't much of an argument either. And I feel the need to point out here that you preemptively reject anecdotal evidence, while supporting this paragraph with a bunch of your own anecdotes.

I am not sure what feeling superior to TRP members does for you psychologically, but the fact that its a community comprised of many social awkward men trying to become more masculine and assertive seems to fit pretty well with the missteps you just described. TRP is about helping men who are not where they want to be, so yea some people's game might be weak, and many members may overcompensate for their shame and anxiety by blustering on the internet. Non of this accounts to much of an argument against the sub. And the fact TRP members are defensive when constantly mocked and ridiculed either is no surprise either. Lots of people get defensive when something they believe in is criticized.

Shit, even just look at the path your community is going. You look down on women for sleeping around, yet it's championed for men. Look how you bitch about "shit tests" yet the newest rage on that sub is "Sitch tests". Look how you bash women for being all emotional and incapable of logic, yet you cling to anecdotes, misinterpreted science or straight up pseudoscience. You've become a carbon copy of the thing you hate, which in my opinion didn't even exist in the first place.

I am not in favor of slut-shaming, but the slut/stud double standard has been pretty throughly debunked. In terms of the community direction and constant bitching, I am not the best person to defend this. Because I don't really participate over there much, and because I would agree that complaining all the time is a weak move. A lot of men over there have been burned pretty badly, and have tons of unprocessed anger which they express through faux-objectivity. Is this problematic? Sure. This exact phenomena plagues feminism and pretty much all political movements though. Hardly unique to TRP. Same with the pseudo-science. Virtually all science discussion is by definition pseudo-science, so I am not sure that proves much of anything. Except perhaps that TRP tried to say it was true because it was scientifically grounded (an incredibly common tactic in this day and age) and failed to 'prove' its principles with science.

fizolof · 2014-05-06T21:09:19+00:00

And the TRP is supposedly some "harsh truth" that shows them the reality of the world. But if you think about it, what's exactly so harsh about it? You're telling a bunch of dudes who've had some variety of issues with women that there's these relatively simple steps that they can follow to become more attractive.

Not really, nobody says it's easy. I think it might be considered "harsh truth", because it says that you can't just "be yourself" and you'll find that perfect person for you. You have to work on yourself instead.

What TRP says isn't harsh or surprising for everyone, but if you're convinved that women are same as men in the context of relationships, you might be surprised and disappointed.

masterrod · 2014-05-07T06:08:43+00:00

This is kind of long winded post about cleaning to someone's idea of how to deal with women.

It's a bit silly to work on this post question by question. Especially when he talks about PUAs losing frame. It happens, but if he's a good PUA it won't. We all take shots, sometimes we lose. It is impossible to be successful in every set. Also, the idea of misinterpreting science is also comical. I wonder what science he's referring to exactly.

It's easiest to simply look at TRP as a method to generate attraction in women, And not maintain relationships that where the female benefits and the men't needs to by the wayside. TRP is filled with people of all ages. TRP is not about revenge.

The revelation that is the lifeblood of TRP is simple that a man has a responsibility in a relationship outside of providing. He has the responsibility to lead the relationship. There are many consequences of taking responsibility, but it is important to TRP that men take responsibility of their lives, woman, and relationship. TRPer also realizes, by spinning plates, that he is valuable in the world of women.

assmunchinator · 2014-05-06T22:43:54+00:00

The slut double standard has been brought up a few times before. Try searching for old threads. Here's what I posted about it before:

And I'm also questioning why you think it's wrong for a woman to be promiscuous but it's ok, and even encouraged for a man to act that way.

You're asking why this is a double standard. It's not. Men in general have a preference for being in a LTR with women with low partner counts. Women in general, don't care as much as men do about partner counts when considering a LTR.

Women generally like taller men, but men don't have a a huge preference in height. Is that also a double standard?

Its fair game if a women doesn't want to be in a relationship with a man with a high partner count. Its all preferences, not double standards.

[deleted] · 2014-05-07T13:45:02+00:00

Because becoming red pill means letting go of certain blue pill notions that previously rule many men's lives:

that a woman can love a man the way he wants to be loved
that a woman can be truly faithful to one man without the man having to worry about hypergamy

Title	Question to TRP about some glaring logical inconsistencies I and others have noticed.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	13
Comments	82
Date	May 6, 2014 7:38 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/24w193/question_to_trp_about_some_glaring_logical/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-to-trp-about-some-glaring-logical.285769 https://theredarchive.com/post/285769

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