Survey Results Teaser | PurplePillDebate

CFRProflcopter · 2015-01-26T17:01:55+00:00

I will be compiling the survey results whenever I get a chance today. In the mean time, I thought I would offer a teaser to those who might be interested. 50%...

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Plugawy_Nedznik 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]damnyankeetn 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)[S] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Archwinger[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)[S] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Archwinger[🍰] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)[S] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]17b29a-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]rumo_itaki 2 points2 points2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rp132 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]rp132 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (24 children) | Copy Link

I have a couple links in my post history somewhere that explain it, but basically TRP and traditional feminism advocate basically the same things but from a different consequential perspective and a different linguistical model...but they really are pretty much exactly the same. Both aim to create a sexual marketplace based on relationship capitalism and individual preference. Both advocate the dissolution of entitlement behaviors and the destruction of traditional family life.

The main difference is the way its sold and to whom its sold, but the future being sold is the same.

My favorite illustration of this is WRT last minute resistance. Both sides, uninitiated, fight over LMR, even though both advocate for exactly the same thing. A feminist might say

Men who push and angle for sex are being abusive. If an obvious verbal or non-verbal "no" is stated, then any further pursuit is rape. Men should take the hint and just leave her alone. No means no! We need to stop the rape culture and foster an attitude of consent, because men are likely in the status quo to ignore a woman's preferences and get angry or violent when rejected.

A red-piller might say

If you constantly push and angle for sex you'll trigger her anti-slut defense and you won't get anywhere. If you react with anger when rejected you lose frame because you are failing to demonstrate outcome independence. Women like to play stupid games with consent where they test you to see if you are wlling to push past it. The correct response to this behaviour is to call their bluff by simply ignoring their LMR and going cold/platonic and tell her to leave/act like you are going to leave yourself. If she was just messing with you then her need for validation will outweigh her need for stupid games and she'll jump on your dick. If she was sincerely not interested then hey, bullet dodged.

Notice how the recommended outcome in BOTH cases is to do exactly the same damn thing (back off, respect consent, bust LMR by holding frame), but the reason to do it is explained from a completely different justification using completely different lingo. Notice how the 'negative' outcome is not the intended audience's fault in both cases?

Both systems are designed to advocate for a future of freely given consentual interactions on the SMV, free of social or historical pressures and targeting only individual preferences. However, both systems sell this future differently.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]rp132 -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]rp132 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminism's view is that if a woman "consents" to an unequal relationship dynamic with the man as head of the household this simply implies she has internalised misogyny and is being coerced, whether she realises it or not.

This is not all of feminisim. This is a particular sort of third wave feminism that most feminist authors would reject. As a matter of fact, as a feminist, this shit fucking offends me, because it implies that stated consent is irrelevant, that individual preferences are irrelevant and ignorable if it goes against some higher traditional moral value.

if an individual woman prefers to be domme in bed, that is her preference, we don't get to make judgements about that preference, that's what empowerment means. We don't erase or minimize that preference, that's what feminism means. If an individual woman prefers to submissive in bed, that is again her preference, we don't get to make judgements about it.

Start here and here.

A "feminist" who made the claim that any preferentially submissive woman must simply be reacting to internalized mysogyny and is being coerced when she engages in BDSM play would, quite frankly, be a sex-negative tradtitionalist asshole who doesn't believe that women have the ability to have agency over their own bodies. I know quite a few feminists who would have a big fucking problem with that.

Of course, most RPer's here wouldn't call the "Captain First-Mate" dynamic BDSM, because it's not about sex. However, the argument here is the fucking same. If my partner ACTIVELY PREFERS to not have responsibility for life choices (and she does, she's told me this explicitly, and she's the most feminist woman I know,), then that is Her making active consent choices about her life and her body based on her preferences. As someone in that thread on TrollX stated "Because asking for what I want and what turns me on is anti-feminist" and "xactly! I decide what I want, I decide who gets consent to do those things and I decide how I feel about it.

No one has the right to tell me what I'm allowed to do with my body, or allowing other people to do. That's the fucking point!

I have control of my body, I can choose to use, or relinquish thst control as I see fit. "

Instead of body jsut make it about core relationship responsibility and direction and that's the same fucking thing.

You know what else? I don't even LIKE being the 'captain'. I think its hard. I think it's frustrating. I think that being the one who has to take the blame when shit goes wrong is really stressful. I think that fighting "no, this is the way it's going to be" when I think its right and she thinks its wrong is REALLY REALLY FUCKING HARD.

But you know what? She TOLD me what her preference was. She TOLD me what makes her happy. It clearly DOES make her happy, so I tough through it because I love her and because I like making her life easy, even if it makes mine hard. That's what a good partner does.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rp132 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Feminism says that women should have the freedom to choose the lifestyles they desire, free from shame. For example, if a woman wants to have a career, she should be allowed to do so without judgement for making that decision. If a woman does not want to have a career but chooses to be a homemaker, she is also empowered to do so free from judgement.

It is a similar argument here. Feminism is about consent and the removal of artificial moral judgements from on high. This means that if two people prefer and consent to a particular kind of relationship, that's between them as long as it's actively consensual.

If you want to label it as morally wrong you aren't tearing down the systems of patriarchy and control and judgement, you are merely substituting one set of norms for another that the patriarchy enforces.

[–]zaphriel0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]rp132 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

You haven't answered the oldest teenager in the house question though.

Two answers to both of these questions. The first answer is that sometimes in-groups use hyperbole to make points and solidify in-group identity. That sometimes groups express anger and discrimination because they are human. For example, many feminist meet up groups say things like "All men are rapists". This is, of course, not a feminist idea (it's blatantly sexist) but it's oft repeated. Tumblr is notorious for this.

The second answer is that the patriarchal enforcement of gender-based social training from a young age has a direct influence on the expectations of personal responsibility of adults based on gender. It has an influence on gender norms and social roles.

If I was speaking using feminist linguistics to argue these RP points, (which I probably wouldn't because I find them somewhat more emotion than logic), I would say

"From a young age the patriarchal enforcement of gender norms shapes the expectations and responses to adversity that children learn to exhibit. Gender is so important to this shaping that it fundamentally changes the character and expected responses to responsibility forever. In men, they are often shamed into being unable to ask for help so often that they end up believing that the only ones able to help them are themselves. In women, the opposite is true, they are told so often that they need help and are given help unsolicited as a result of their gender that they end up believing that they cannot help themselves and need the approvial/aid of someone else to solve their problems.

This enforced regression of agency has real consequences for many women, who sometimes end up entering adulthood with a crippling disability to solve their own problems or have confidence about their own abilities. This can lead to work or school problems, poor life choices generally, and them entering and preferring relationships that allow them to defer responsibility so much that they can trend towards being abusive, simply because the influence of the patriarchy crippled them in childhood preventing them from facing the hardships necessary to develop life skills, self-confidence, and independence that their male peers were mandated to accomplish due to their isolation."

[–]zaphriel0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Ok. One point at a time.

Yes people are fallible, ' That sometimes groups express anger and discrimination because they are human.' but this doesn't mean that it's a solid ideology and doesn't mean it shouldn't be called out. Its not a rare comment that is made on trp. I don't think that it can be considered lightly.

' The second answer is that the patriarchal enforcement of gender-based social training from a young age has a direct influence on the expectations of personal responsibility of adults based on gender'

In which case trp is a self fulfilling prophesy for the next generation to go out and hate women/enter abusive relationships again. That makes me consider your support of trp completely illogical as it will further oppress women and men through hate passed on to the next generation.

Just for personal interest do you believe marital rape exists?

[–]rp1321 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zaphriel1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rp1321 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are arguing that the system as is is damaging children in their set up of gender.

Yes, the argument is basically that the patriarchy disadvantages women. Fairly feminist, no? The damage it does results in (statistically) many women being unable or inexperienced in managing their own affairs or handling their problems like an adult. Fairly RP, no?

If trp is raising children (and it seems that terrifyingly it is) then it will raise a generation of women who self hate and of men who think women are beneath them and are to be treated like dogs.

I have no idea where you came up with this. I don't think anywhere I said that the solution to the patriarchy is to treat women like dogs. I don't think I proposed any solutions.

As flawed as I believe that the system that is creating the gender roles that we currently have, it's a lot better than this alternative.

What alternative are you referring to, exactly? I wasn't proposing any alternatives.

Have you read trp then? Cause they don't.

IF Terpers wanted to have sex with their wives and didn't believe that doing so by force is rape, then all of /r/MarriedRedPill wouldn't exist. There's no need for a married sexual strategy if you don't believe in married rape, there's certainly no need for discussions about it. If you don't believe in married rape and you want to have sex with your wife (which is what you claim the the state of subscribers to /r/MarriedRedPill is), then all you have to do is rape her.

Find me ONE post on /r/marriedredpill that says "Guys, I don't know what you are talking about. If your wife doesn't feel like it, who cares, just rape her"

ONE.

[–]zaphriel1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

' I have no idea where you came up with this. I don't think anywhere I said that the solution to the patriarchy is to treat women like dogs. I don't think I proposed any solutions.'

You self declare as the oxymoron 'red pill feminist' therefore you believe in two red pillers having children. You've already stated that children's gender constructs are a result of their environment. Therefore the boys will copy daddy (emotionally abusive, thinks women are animals) and the girls will copy mummy (for some reason puts up with that and goes in the kitchen to make him pie)

If gender constructs are a result of environment it would have toxic effects on the children, leading to yet more emotional abuse.

And not once did I refer to trp desperately attempting to save marriage subreddit. I was talking about red pillers in general. There are countless posts on trp that all women bring to a marriage is sex, therefore she must hold up her end of the bargain if she wants to or not

[–]rp1321 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Therefore the boys will copy daddy (emotionally abusive, thinks women are animals) and the girls will copy mummy (for some reason puts up with that and goes in the kitchen to make him pie)

Yeah I don't believe that.

You've already stated that children's gender constructs are a result of their environment

I believe that environment goes much further beyond 'mommy and daddy mirroring' and extends much more to like, you know, all of society. This is called 'patriarchy', you should do some more research.

If gender constructs are a result of environment it would have toxic effects on the children, leading to yet more emotional abuse.

I think you mistakenly assume that red pill daddy is emotionally abusive, which, again, is something that remains to be proven that I've never stated. I'm completely against all forms of abuse.

And not once did I refer to trp desperately attempting to save marriage subreddit. I was talking about red pillers in general.

My point is this: you made the claim that red pillers REALLY believed that it was acceptable to rape their wives. Not only did you fail to support that claim, but I also can directly DISPROVE that claim merely by observing that married redpillers talk endlessly about how to convince their wives to have sex with them. It's basically topic number one for married redpillers.

This disproves your claim because if redpillers believed that it was acceptable to rape their wives then there would be no need to discuss how to achieve it, there would be no convincing, they would just go rape them.

There are countless posts on trp that if all a woman brings to a marriage is sex, therefore she must hold up her end of the bargain if she wants to ~~or not~~ continue to be married.

FTFY.

For what its worth, no I don't believe it is acceptable to force yourself on your wife, that's not a redpill idea. I do believe that either party in a relationship has the right to leave a relationship that fails to satisfy their needs, sex included, which means that if my wife decided she didn't want me sexually then I'd leave my relationship and find someone who did.

I don't believe in any party in a relationship committing any kind of abuse is valid.

[–]zaphriel1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ok, just to sweep it out of the way, there you go.

http://imgur.com/a/ms9c6

Secondly, if you are saying that children do not mirror their parents in gender construction (which goes against about 50 years of research, but yeah whatever) then it isn't damaging to a boys gender construct that he grows up on a single parent family with no father? Surely this goes directly against rp values?

Yes, you can argue that the patriarchy is to blame for gender constructs to a certain degree, but predominantly because it shapes the parent's that are in the family, who shape the child. You can't just argue the patriarchy does it but the parents have zero influence in the child. In which case, why have parents? Why allow for parents to make any childbearing choices? It won't make any difference cause the patriarchy will shape the child. Its a lazy argument which I'm pretty sure would be rejected by almost anyone that identifies as rp and many feminists.

[–]rp1321 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Secondly, if you are saying that children do not mirror their parents in gender construction (which goes against about 50 years of research, but yeah whatever) then it isn't damaging to a boys gender construct that he grows up on a single parent family with no father? Surely this goes directly against rp values?

I apologize, when I said "I don't believe that" I meant "Your characterization of my beliefs is an oversimplification". Obviously children are influenced by their parents. My point was that I think it's a gross and laughable straw-man to assume that RP is some guy in a wife-beater tshirt showing his son "LOOK son, this is what woman deserve" as he rapes his wife.

Ok, just to sweep it out of the way, there you go.

http://imgur.com/a/ms9c6

I don't have time, nor do I owe you, an individual case-by case contextualization or explaination for a bunch of posts with a handful of upvotes that I had nothing to do with. Some of them are stupid and not redpill. Some of them are sexist trash. Some of them are redpill but require linguistic and philosophical deconstruction, some of them aren't any pill but are fairly insigntful. Most of them are not very highly upvoted (but some are...shrug).

Look, If I claimed that all blue-pillers wanted to cut off and eat male penises, you'd say "Uh, no, what an absurd straw-man...many blue-pillers are men themselves."

I could then take the random top post from /r/SRS or /r/TumblrInAction and make a mega compilation of thousands of racist sexist uneducated and violent shit that you never said, but that STILL wouldn't prove that blue-pillers want to cut off and eat male penises.

It's somewhat absurd to post a bajillon random things and be like "look how right I am" when NONE of them support your claim that redpillers want to rape their wives, which is what we were actually discussing.

Please explain to me why a red-piller who believed it was acceptable to rape his wife would bother trying to "game" or manipulate his wife? It seems like game and seduction are significantly harder than rape, so why would they bother discussing it?

t isn't damaging to a boys gender construct that he grows up on a single parent family with no father? Surely this goes directly against rp values?

Sure, I'm not sure I understand what the relevance here is.

es, you can argue that the patriarchy is to blame for gender constructs to a certain degree, but predominantly because it shapes the parent's that are in the family, who shape the child. You can't just argue the patriarchy does it but the parents have zero influence in the child. In which case, why have parents? Why allow for parents to make any childbearing choices? It won't make any difference cause the patriarchy will shape the child. Its a lazy argument which I'm pretty sure would be rejected by almost anyone that identifies as rp and many feminists.

You are right about most if not all of this, I'd like to clarify again that I didn't mean that parents don't influence their children, but that I meant that I don't believe that children are clones of their rapist fathers...I believe that parents have a massive influence of course, but the reality is that so do teachers and schools and the media and their peers and the rest of our culture.

[–]zaphriel1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ok, seeing as you cannot be bothered to read, there are 5+ comments stating that 'spousal rape just isn't a thing' or as close to. I wasn't dragging the whole thread into here to debate it all.

' My point was that I think it's a gross and laughable straw-man to assume that RP is some guy in a wife-beater tshirt showing his son "LOOK son, this is what woman deserve" as he rapes his wife.'

And that's an over simplification of what I was saying. That if a red piller is a toxic sexist the behaviour will repeat itself in the next generations gender constructs and self visualisations. Abuse victims as children frequently become the next generation of abusers. You can't logically come to the conclusion that children who witness psychological abuse between their parents are not at a greater chance of repeating it.

Basically you are either not a red piller or not a feminist, the two cannot coexist. And I'd say from your posts, you aren't a red piller, you just want traditional relationships.

[–]imaterriblelurker1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]rp132 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you have any other places other than RPW that you browse to get more insight? In my opinion, RPW is like the dumb cheerleader.

Unfortunately, as I am not a woman, I don't really post at, or even lurk at, RPW. I glanced at it a couple of times but found it difficult to relate to or participate in. More power to them, however.

Do you have any other places other than RPW that you browse to get more insight?

My post history is extensive and I like to answer questions about it. I mostly talk here because (for obvious reasons) the fuzzy fringe is more interesting and more of an opportunity to mull over ideas than either "pill-specific' subreddit.

I would love to get an AMA from you :)

Thanks! I'm considering it now, but honestly I have a strong feeling it would quickly be overtaken by trolls and ideologues. Rather than being interested in mediation, usually both pills get disgusted by my presence and try to distance themselves from me as much as possible. I'll consider it.

If you want to talk to me about a particular idea or question it strokes my ego to answer and consider things, so please do.

[–]imaterriblelurker0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]rp132 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Were you raised in a traditional family?

No/Yes. I was raised by only my mother until I was 11, then she got remarried and I had the traditional nuclear family.

What are your views on the role/importance of feminism in western society compared with for instance Muslim societies or Christian Societies in the third world?

I think that (certain branches of) feminism is the gender related variant of classical liberalism. This naturally fosters better in western societies than in other cultures or economic systems for obvious reasons. However, I do believe in capitalism and classical liberalism enough that I believe that it will and should spread around the world as a part of entering into the next age of civilization based on individual acts and preferences as the fundamental social unit.

I think that we see TRP and Angry Feminists as fundamentally two sides of the same coin, fighting against the old school traditional communist anti-competitive social structures of marriage and religion and morality-from-on-high. Unfortunately they are also fighting each-other. This is because neither one recognizes the way that increasing liberty and individual choice helps both of them because they are still stuck in the fallacy of a zero-sum game: that is, both groups seem to think that increased liberty for one decreases the liberty of the other.

Do you think that AMALT is something RP women should be advocating?

I think that AMALT and AWALT are both statements of statistical potential. For example, obviously not all women are cheaters. However, all women are human, and the vast majority of humans find attractive people desirable, and the vast majority of time when humans find things desirable they are tempted to attain them. This is all definitional. Therefore, the vast vast majority of people have the potential to cheat, so you should always behave as if theymight and not wear blinders about the possibility.

It's the same things as going down a dark alleyway. Not all homeless people are "like that" but that doesn't mean I'm not going to watch my back for sudden movements.

What do you think of women like those in RPW?

I don't honestly know much about them. Like I said, I don't lurk there. I can go look if you want and answer this question later.

If you could change 1 general behaviour attributed to each gender to make the world a better place, what would you change?

I think that women don't respect or value consent nearly as much as they say they do, which absolutely contributes to rape culture. Women ABSOLUTELY try to test to see if you'll break through LMR or secretly try to get you to engage in BDSM games without establishing safewords. Like...a LOT of them do...a HUGE percentage. Not all, but a HUGE percentage. This teaches men to be rapists and punishes them when they aren't. Women should stop doing this shit.

Similarly, men should stop trying to buy affection. Men believe that they are owed affection by how they behave or what gifts they give or what time they spend, and get pissed when they don't get what they 'paid for'. it makes all of society into a prostitution ring and contributes to BB. It's also super whiney and demeaning.

[–]zaphriel0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rumo_itaki1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Survey Results Teaser
Author	CFRProflcopter
Upvotes	12
Comments	43
Date	January 26, 2015 5:01 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2tqidv/survey_results_teaser/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/survey-results-teaser.283695 https://theredarchive.com/post/283695

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