Discussion: Do you think conservative and "old-fashioned" cultures got it right? If so, what changed?

scamper_22 · 2015-01-19T19:14:42+00:00

It really depends. but let's not idealize the past nor religion, nor tradition.

I see this often here, and I sometimes shake my head at this desiring of the past as somehow women changed. Women have not changed.

I come from a heavily orthodox islamic background. I hope I don't need to specify the role of women in orthodox Islam. Just last night on Facebook someone had that classic prophet's last sermon where it says something about racial enlightment as the only thing that matter is race.

In the same sermon of course it says men have a right to chaste women and that a women should not associate with anyone her husband does not approve of.

Something tells me even in 7th century Arabia women were the same as today.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you." http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=2&translator=1&start=0&number=28#28

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=6&translator=1&start=0&number=301#301

Does this ring a bell? All that has changed is that women have been allowed to run wild due to few societal constraints. Let me posit the opposite gender. If men were just allowed to run amock in society, they'd be a lot of needles violence.

Women no longer have controls on them and men cannot control them anymore. Welfare state, alimony, child support... etc...

Religion or tradition sadly is not the answer. Again, I come from a pretty Islamic community despite the macho outer appearance, it has become MORE feminized than the rest of the culture.

That is with the exception of those who import submissive girls that their mother can control or something like that from back home. But that's due to cultural control. You need a woman to control another woman in such times.

For religion in the west, it really is Muslim women just wanting all the good things about tradition (Men pay for everything, they keep their own spending, men being told to raise a family, religious men being ignorant about women, drag men to their cultural events...)

But anything about honoring the husband, obedience, loyalty to his family... you basically almost anything that requires anything traditional of them is a not there.

The same I suspect is true of christianity. The guy I work with is a Christian. Married a sick woman 13 years his elder with 2 kids already. Why? Because men are there to take care of women as God instructed.

Do you see how religion has been flipped. While women used to say religion is oppressive commanding a women to obey her husband (thus curse religion), women today and religious leaders have taken control of religion to make it men should provide for women.

Trust me when I say, the situation on religious grounds is not pretty from the inside. Most Muslim men I know don't even want to get married with the women out there. The divorce rate is high and it's not a pretty sight.

pupplenupple · 2015-01-19T10:25:07+00:00

We partially deregulated the sexual marketplace when we allowed no-fault divorce. As often happens in a deregulated marketplace, the capacity to be a roaring success or the capacity to be a dire failure both get increased, and the amount of work those in the middle of these extremes must do gets increased. Hence lack of satisfaction on the part of both men and women. Yes, women too. A middle class woman used to be able to pretty much rely upon her husband allowing her to quit work several years before they intended having kids, now she's lucky if she gets to quit before she has two or more kids under school age. A raw deal, if she must also continue to keep up the level of pleasantness and attentiveness and slimness that was expected in the fifties.

So more unhappy people who are unhappy not because they fucked up and chose the wrong partner, but because even if you choose the right partner you are still going to have to both work harder than ever before just to avoid dire failure... and the heights of success (being alpha playboy for men, for women being a trophy wife who goes through several wealthy alpha husbands, pumps out 2 to 3 ridiculously well resourced children and wanders off rich and free) are always there taunting us.

So most people are unhappy and they are behaving the way that unhappy couples always have, even in the fifties.

Oh well. Just the way things are nowadays, one has to choose to work harder, stop comparing oneself to others beyond what is necessary to work out what is happening, and stop whining about what one can't change. I'm not sure I'd want things back the way they were in the fifites, people who have made genuine mistakes in marriage should be allowed to free themselves without it being a devastating fight, but its a hard life for the lazy and the weak of both genders now.

DukeHollywood · 2015-01-19T16:07:24+00:00

If you're strictly referring to marriage then yes but overall FUCK NO.

Even with marriage i'm not 100% sure. Because of the influence of religion many people spent their entire lives with people they absolutely loathed. They gave up any potential happiness because if they divorced they would be ostracized from their community, family, church, etc.

Of course I think there is plenty wrong today but everything moves in cycles and I think the cycle of feminism is coming to an end because like nearly every movement they overstepped their boundaries to the point they are having the pendulum swing back the other way.

Everyone loves to look at the past with rose colored glasses but I think it's bullshit.

The 50's may have been a great time in America for two big reasons.

1.) After a war it's a lot easier for people to appreciate each other and the small things because they've lost so much.

2.) For the US, all our biggest rivals in manufacturing and innovation were in ruins and rebuilding giving us an opportunity to completely dominate the world economy. This was a bubble though, historically you've never been able to work a non-technical labor job and own a house, car and support a family.

Imagine you're born on a farm in 1910. What are the chances you're doing anything with your life but being a farmer? Less than 10% I'd wager. That's just the way it worked back then.

I've learned a lot from this sub but I think if you bury yourself in it too much you start to think things are way worse than they are.

I'm currently in Thailand working for myself, training muay thai and hanging out. There are beautiful thin girls everywhere coming through from Europe, Australia, Asia, etc. Know how many conversations i've heard about feminism in the past month? A big fat 0.

All the tools are out there for you to create the life you want in a way that wasn't possible even ten years ago.

asd1100 · 2015-01-19T15:18:10+00:00

Similarly things like shit-tests would never never happen ever

Oh they do, they are just very subtle. Sometimes they don't even say anything, they just observe you failing.

I cannot think of a single case of someone behaving like that.

the shittest is not a open conflict per se, that is just it's form in a rude society. The shit test is a challenge to frame and that doesn't require necessary spousal conflict.

it appears that in the US too things were like this back in 50s and 60s and 70s?

no, they wheren't, they where a simulacrum of how things where during the old generation. Men where already man children, fatherless and pussy whipped. Only in hindsigh we see it as "traditional". For women to rise to power you need a domesticated culture of men, that is what occured in the 50s in the us. In the 90s in Japan.

Where you do not have domestication you see gender open conflict: india, the middle east.

If so what changed?

Men stopped needing to be men to survive, but due to the patriarchal system women still had to rely on betas. This cumulated into a lot of frustration for women. If a mans job comes with hardship and risk, I guarantee you that no woman wants equality, but if it's easy, why the fuck should they do the heavy lifting in the relationship.(being a good mother is harder than most modern jobs)

Was it the hippie revolution of 60s and 70s that started the trend?

consequence of having man-children for fathers. The same thing is happening with western Europeans and Millennials

Why don't people think of going back to the times?

because of entropy, culture is a chronological layered cake. Not only is the present built on the past, it unavoidably creates the future. Laws can not dictate culture. Culture is a reaction to laws, it grows organically around them. Hypothetically if you were to create circumstances to revert back to traditionalism within the context of post-modernity you would have to have a high risk work environment(each time you get a paycheck you have to play Russian roulette). This would deter women from working while using their "talent" to leverage men into the workforce. Men would get in the habit of working for pussy again and learn to adapt to the risk(making them more alpha) the weak ones would just die out. As the work force got smaller, salaries would grow exponentially, making those men even more desirable and successful and women would find themself in natural dread. They would worship their man, inherently, reactively, out of instinct.

Dev_on · 2015-01-19T15:04:56+00:00

I wanted to make a post about it here, but haven't gotten around to it.

When everyone talks about super conservative, human controlling ethics and social norms, it's directly tied to how hard it is to survive in a region. It's why the russians are so strict and authoritative, or the muslims. Since the russian wilderness and deserts in the middle east are the harshest areas of human habitation right now, so you get certain 'norms' you will also see them in earlier western/eastern societies, but get phased out by 'civilization'

war would be important, because resources were limited, and it would allow the survivors to secure more wealth.

fidelity was important, as was punishments of the time (losing hands for theft, stoning for adultry) because otherwise you end up with tribal warfare, and it was detrimental to society aiming for better stability and survival.

As surviving becomes easier, you get social change. Homosexual acceptance, individual rights etc. The easier it is to get along in life, the more lax the social constraints. the one good thing you can take from 3rd wave femenism and some of the other BS out there, is that it's an indicator of how far we've made it as a society.

I guarantee, as soon as the zombies start coming, we will devolve right back into it, men will become disposable again en masse, women will become subservient child rearers, homosexuality will become taboo, and people will start getting stoned for adultery.

Thomas Barnett is great with his geo-political strategy lectures. It's not TRP per-se, but it really does take a view of things from a very high level.

tombreck2 · 2015-01-19T16:19:26+00:00

Conservative cultures protected women from themselves.

Westernized women think they can fuck their way through their late teens and 20s and then eventually settle down with Mr. Perfect and live happily ever after.

Conservative societies teach the women that the need to preserve their emotions for a man that is going to stay around for more than one drunken night.

RedPillSafe · 2015-01-19T17:38:48+00:00

Marxism was lurking in the background all around the world in the late 1800's.

Russia was the first to fall for it and it took from 1912 to 1991 (79 years) before it finally collapsed and was replaced by post-Marxist Russia. (authoritarian Putin)

China also absorbed Marxism and they too saw it rise and fall. China now runs with a more authoritarian post-Marxist system more like Russia.

The West is simply the LAST to try Cultural Marxism.

What we know is that neither China nor Russia went directly back to their previous cultures, so the lesson learned is that Marxism needs to die out before anything can replace it.

Marxism / Feminism can be seen like a fire in the forest. It eventually consumes and destroys all the flammable material then it dies out.

So we never get to "go back".

We have to let the fires burn...

AnonTheAnonymous · 2015-01-19T13:17:38+00:00

Conservative cultures are cultures where betas get to pretend to be alphas by lack of competition. They are still loser betas, and their wives still see them that way, they just don't say anything out of cultural indoctrination. So all you really want is to have a woman pretend to think you are her man, rather than having modern society throw your beta traits in your face. Conservative men are beta as fuck.

tits_out_forTheBoys · 2015-01-19T08:47:27+00:00

Many RedPillers are classical liberals because that is the culture which America was founded upon...and thus, it is the culture that we feel is most "right."

Malinois · 2015-01-19T08:00:06+00:00

The root word of conservative is conserve. To conserve requires forethought. Using forethought reduces mistakes as long as the person has enough mental capacity and knowlege retention, comprehension, and utililization skills.

I'd say being conservative is a better choice than living on a whim...

whitey_male · 2015-01-19T13:22:39+00:00

It almost certainly would have been better if you were a male. From my experience most women were happy being home makers.

Maybe losing the Vietnam war did it. Conscripting boomers to fight in that shit hole might drive people to the left.

PlusGoody · 2015-01-19T13:34:50+00:00

Birth control and legalized abortion allowed respectable women to spend more of their lives working for pay (at best) or slutting it up (at worst). Once married mothers started earning and spending cash, the costs of a middle class life became inflated such that all wives of non-rich men were strongly impelled to work.

Mire_Lurker · 2015-01-19T22:32:48+00:00

What changed? Cultural Marxism.

HeadingRed · 2015-01-20T22:46:46+00:00

There is always someone who says "It was so much better in the olden days". It's a rose-colored glasses view that cherry picks the best and ignores the rest (and most likely the best is already 50-90% BS).

drkstrs · 2015-01-23T19:45:10+00:00

There is no way for TradCon to return. The conditions that created it and made it work are long, long gone. If in 2015, you think you will get married before to a teenage bride that never will need to work, and you will support her off your one salary. I think this is horrible anyway. I don't want to support anyone else unless it's part of an equal exchange. This whole system is why Alimony laws existed. Your wife in that system was literally like a little dependent child married to you for support. That world is long gone my friends, although the alimony laws benefitting "helpless" women still exist as an anachronism. If you think you are going to live TradCon now, NOTHING protects you as a man from being utterly and totally abused in that role. TradCon was always a system that benefitted women, not men. I don't think it was even a fair exchange. It is better to know female nature and male nature and navigate the jungle as it is NOW. Ignorance is NOT bliss. TradCon makes no sense in today's world. It is wishful thinking. There is no going back to it.

nzgs · 2015-01-19T10:00:06+00:00

Old-fashioned conservative cultures acted against the freedom of men almost as much as women. You must be dreaming if you think men back then were spinning plates and that their wife was only their own choice. Marriage was always more about financial advantages rather than love, and parents had a huge influence in partner selection.

The only "right" way for society to function is without government. Feminism and family breakdown are enabled by government subsidies. In a truly free-market world, men and women are free to select each other for the purest reasons and women will again feel the need for the security of the family unit.

I know that many redpill betas on here long for a conservative society where they can be "matched" to a woman of their own standard, but sexual freedom produces a fitter and more successful society. This is how humanity got to where it is today; the fierce competition of men to be part of the group that reproduces. Without this competition you end up with modern western society that reaffirms effeminate traits in men with every generation. The real issue is with government-enabled disloyalty, not hypergamy.

AnonTheAnonymous · 2015-01-19T13:34:17+00:00

These kinds of posts make me envision some pathetic beta church-going good boy who gets some oneitis for a "good church girl" but finds out shes with some bad boy and only sees him as a friend. So he thinks "If only we lived in a culture where girls couldn't choose bad boys, then I'd get her."

You are a lazy pussy. You want her? Go lift, then tell her you want to fuck her, then do it.

Title	Discussion: Do you think conservative and "old-fashioned" cultures got it right? If so, what changed?
Author	trpmus
Upvotes	16
Comments	44
Date	January 19, 2015 7:21 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2swxpt/discussion_do_you_think_conservative_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/discussion-do-you-think-conservative-and-old.28112 https://theredarchive.com/post/28112

Comments

Something tells me even in 7th century Arabia women were the same as today.