Mens rights vs hating women

iainmf · 2021-05-10T12:17:25+00:00

An excellent example of constructive criticism of the sub.

Good work.

SoundSecret · 2021-05-10T20:44:01+00:00

Hey this is really cool! Good on you

LettuceBeGrateful · 2021-05-10T13:40:48+00:00

I have no problem with the MGTOW crowd but I think the different spaces should be reserved for different conversations.

I mean, it's okay to have a problem with them. You can acknowledge the causes of their pain without condoning how they express it.

When fighting for human rights, you can't alienate huge portions of society with comments like these.

I agree. And just to be explicit, misogyny is also bad merely because it's bad, not just because it delegitimizes men's activism.

Some of those comments aren't okay, but I wouldn't agree that all them are examples of hating women. For example, the one about having sexual worth tied to your bank account is an issue of objectification, not a condemnation of women based on their gender. I wouldn't go into a woman's group and tell them that complaining about objectification is actually man-hating. It isn't. Subs like this are the perfect place to discuss societal issues faced by men.

I also think the quote about feminism is borderline but ultimately acceptable. It stops short of saying that women actually act that way. Feminism is one of the biggest obstacles in the way of equality for men - we need to be able to criticize it.

Also, most of reddit's feminist and "against hate" circles are ideological, extremely partisan, hypocritical, and often the very hate they preach against. I couldn't care less what they think of me or this sub.

I don't agree with your post 100%, but it's a substantive critique of this sub's culture and that's awesome. You might not realize how rare a post like this is. Most of the criticism we get from "anti-hate" groups is not made in the same good faith as yours. A lot of links on reddit (and even publications outside of reddit) are fond of taking things out of context in a way that you didn't. We can't kowtow to people who ultimately want to see us silenced, and have to resort to false citations just to make that argument.

Finally - and this goes back to my first point about MGTOW - when men express frustration with women, we as a society should have the same curiosity that we do when women say they're frustrated with men. Is it all women-hating, or are some examples actually cases of systemic sexism against men, playing out at the individual level?

NoMoreMisterMaybe · 2021-05-10T13:42:45+00:00

So you would rather they be silenced away to places and have them draw the hate instead? Look, I get your point. But real question: do you think it is in any way okay for people to be resented because they are curious whether or not something as integral to life as partnership, romance and love is being trivialized?

Because that's also what is happening to men right now. If anything, their continued silencing and shaming of the people questioning what is going on, is exactly what is fanning the flames and resulted in them coming here. Now you're basically telling them they should stay within their own containers because the issues concerning men that you feel most aligned with, are more important than theirs. Even if you send them away and they have their discussions there, they will still be berated, because they don't conform to the status quo.

There's a certain naivete and fear in your post here. As if it is this important to conform to the opinions of others. As if this has worked out so well in the past, and they didn't find ways to make jabs at MRA before. It's one thing to snuff out things you believe are misandrist through reason. It's another thing entirely to try and silence them away, which is in part what you are advocating now.

bufedad · 2021-05-10T13:47:50+00:00

The first one talks about dating as a man. Don't really see that as women hating, especially since the majority of the sentiment is backed up by data.

The second one is a gender swap of a man hating post to show how ridiculous it is.

The third, again, talks about dating troubles men face.

None of these are women hating.

If we can't talk about issues men face here, then men cannot talk about the issues they face.

power_forward87 · 2021-05-10T16:10:34+00:00

None of these are women-hating. First one goes over dating as a man...it's not Woman-hate as there is tons of stats and data to back that up

#2- I see more of a role reversal, which definitely highlights how utterly asinine the situation is.

#3- more about issues men face while trying to date

You raise a valid point, but yea there wasn't anything wrong with any of those posts.

Walshy231231 · 2021-05-10T16:11:29+00:00

This is sort of the crux of men’s rights

The second you give in to hate out of frustration, you only serve as fodder for the stereotype of toxic masculinity.

Fighting hate with hate does nothing but create more hate and division. It does nothing constructive. It’s fine to vent your frustration, but when you start generalizing or accusing, it is no longer in good faith, for lack of a better description.

There is no equality or equity without women being capable and happy, just the same as for men. Fighting for one’s rights and happiness shouldn’t include tearing down others, except for rare cases of mutual exclusion (e.g. men not having naming rights to their children, in which case some control should be relinquished from the mother)

maxlvb · 2021-05-10T22:54:54+00:00

Note: OP has a new 15 day old account...

SuperSupremeKai · 2021-05-10T12:55:04+00:00

TBH, men's rights should also include how we are socially treated. But yeah, most of these comments and posts should be relegated to r/MGTOW or r/MGTOW2

But what is so wrong about stating the reasons as to WHY we are in this situation if it does affect us?

Adanu0 · 2021-05-10T23:36:31+00:00

So dating is not part of men's rights now?

Stop the tone policing. We get it every week.

rabel111 · 2021-05-11T00:34:04+00:00

This sub isn't here to care about women or their ability to be offended. Nor is it about recruiting women to a cause. There are hundreds of women's rights subs that talk about offended women.

This sub is for discussions about men and masculinity, and the experiences of men. That includes good and bad experiences in relationships or interactions with women, and a broad range of opinions which many will either disagree with, or relate to. Feminism is not a protected species, and given the sheer volume of feminist hate speech directed at men, feminist opposition to MRAs, feminist led denial of service for men, and aggressive feminist silencing of any acknowledgement of men's issues (i.e. IMD), criticism of feminist and feminism is common. This isn't unreasonable, or misogyny, unless you define criticism of feminism as misogyny.

Why are you trying to silence the views of some men because those views may offend some women? This isn't a popularity contest. It's a forum for men in world where there are very few forums that allow men to speak freely. Why are you trying to restrict men's expression of their experiences using the subjective perceptions of women as a measure of acceptable speech?

I agree that some of the views here I find offensive (possibly not the same ones you find offensive). But the men and women posting these views are not going to change their views by being silenced or deplatformed. That's more likely the reason for their views being so disengaged from main stream dialogues in the first place. If you silence them they do not disappear or go away. That's delusional totalitarian thinking. If you silencing them on one of the last surviving subs where they can still speak, you drive them further into the dark.

d_nijmegen · 2021-05-10T13:08:16+00:00

If they don't like the mgtow people, they should not destroy every place they come together. Ban their subs they go elsewhere, like here.

So basically mensrights should fight for mgtow to be among friends. That's the only way to distance ourselves from their ideas. Without denying them rights.

WingsofSky · 2021-05-10T22:00:03+00:00

I thought some women wanted the "total destruction of mankind"?

They treat us like "objects" to use for money, then toss us away.

Then you are crying about how upset we are?

Intrepid_University6 · 2021-05-10T14:37:07+00:00

By allowing women to live in our minds rent free we remove the focus from what we are here for.

It’s a waste of time and energy complaining about what someone else is doing. It makes no difference if they deserve it or not.

I also understand it’s easier said than done.

RobDog101 · 2021-05-10T19:43:29+00:00

How long are we gonna pretend that we’ll get anywhere with good PR instead of by corroborating what all young men who aren’t willfully blind realize about their place in society vs women’s? Having empathy and sympathy for men doesn’t come naturally to most people. We need to make men better at acting in their own interest by making them fucking angry. And you know what? From what I’ve seen over just the past few years that’s working. Men of my generation and younger who do not even consider themselves part of the MRM are openly parroting what once were exclusively MRM talking points about everything from circumcision to the wage gap myth to male disposability and the absurdity of feminist dogma on patriarchy and male privilege. They no longer tolerate females talking out of school about masculinity and what makes a real man, how males are supposedly socialized vs how we should be, baselessly claiming sole authority on men’s “lived experience” to try to monopolize control of the gender narrative. Victories for the MRM will almost surely not come from getting more people to identify as MRAs by making such an identity as socially acceptable and palatable as feminism (it likely never will be), but from getting them to agree with everything MRAs have been saying for decades, without even realizing their ideas originated in places like this. Admitting to being an MRA will still be a terminable offense under the policies of all corporate giants for the foreseeable future. Don’t try to delude yourself into thinking that you can placate them by trying to purge any language that could be interpreted as “misogynistic” from our discourse; the mere fact of giving a shit about men is as “misogynistic” as anything you can say or do as far as the status quo is concerned.

LGuappo · 2021-05-10T20:11:33+00:00

Agree. I'm facing a situation where my SO (former SO) is doing some of the most legit unethical, detestable stuff that a woman can do in a breakup. Manipulation and lies, character assassination, on a level I never would have thought possible. It would be nice if there were someplace to get some good advice and support on all that without feeling like I'm expected to sign up for some moronic mgtow political agenda. Subscribed to this sub an hour ago and am sorta regretting it already.

ObviousObservationz · 2021-05-10T16:57:52+00:00

More advocates for mens rights would help men with inequality. If people had faith that the mens rights movement was about Injustice, people would be more open to hearing it.

But it seems the overwhelming opinion here is that insulting women comes hand in hand with mens rights which IS EXACTLY what feminists say about the mens rights movement.

It's odd to see a situation where feminists and MRAs agree but here we are.

AmongUs_SHITPOSTER · 2021-05-11T19:30:41+00:00

i just want to support men's rights without all the misogyny attached to it, i'm not sure why such a preset is so hard to achieve

Title	Mens rights vs hating women
Author	ThisIsTheEnd6
Upvotes	44
Comments	66
Date	May 10, 2021 12:04 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/n92tou/mens_rights_vs_hating_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mens-rights-vs-hating-women.828794 https://theredarchive.com/post/828794

Comments