Nice activism | MensRights

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thayes5000 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (130 children) | Copy Link

[–]typhonblue 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (128 children) | Copy Link

[–]TRPACC 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (127 children) | Copy Link

[–]anna_e_banana 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (120 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The "victim blaming" myth of feminism's "rape culture" theory is based on combining a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent with a type of circular reasoning called Begging the Question. Affirming the consequent is an argument in which the individual assumes that if one factor results from another, it can also be used to prove the other, when one is not discussing biconditional factors (either/or) but factors for which there can be variables. Begging the question is an argument based on the assumption that its own conclusion is true.

The affirming the consequent example in the link uses several scenarios. I want to look for a minute at just the first two.

1) If Bill Gates owns Fort Knox, then he is rich.
2) Bill Gates is rich.
3) Therefore, he owns Fort Knox.

The fallacy is obvious in that example. It's less obvious in the second, as we often diagnose ourselves based on past experience. This is a much more common mistake.

1) If I have the flu, then I have a sore throat.
2) I have a sore throat.
3) Therefore, I have the flu.

As the factors appear more related or the issue becomes more clouded with additional steps or ideology, it becomes easier for the mind to disguise that mistake as a reasonable course of thought.

The begging the question link contains extensive discussion. It explains circular reasoning thus:

To beg the question is to assume something that you have no right to assume. What don't you have a right to assume? The conclusion itself, obviously, or any proposition that is just the conclusion stated in different words. Clearly, to use any argument in which the conclusion is also one of the premisses is to reason in a circle: reasoning from the premisses to the conclusion brings you back to where you started.

Feminist "victim blaming" accusations start with two wrongful assumptions. First, that the individual under discussion is a victim (feminists label incidents "rape" whether their assigned "victim" agrees with them or not) and second, that these "victims" interest in controlling their risk level is unreasonable. Both premises are assumed for the purpose of labeling discussion on rape prevention "victim blaming."

The flaws in in the "logic" behind feminist claims of victim blaming are similarly clouded, but once you see them they're glaringly obvious.

In this case, the antecedent is "If a trauma makes the victim feel helpless and afraid" and the antecedent is "then the victim will adopt behaviors to try to gain control over future circumstances to avoid experiencing the trauma again."

1) "If a trauma makes the victim feel helpless and afraid, then the victim will adopt behaviors to try to gain control over future circumstances to avoid experiencing the trauma again."

Trauma such as combat conditions sometimes leads to PTSD. One of the symptoms of PTSD is the sufferer's tendency to blame himself for conditions he could not control, and to adopt behaviors to try to gain a measure of control over those conditions

That's established from treatment of war vets who suffer from PTSD following tours of duty in which they faced conditions of life-threatening violence.

Rape can be a traumatic experience

That's established from evaluation of female victims of violent rape.

Here, feminists throw in their begging-the-question premises; the unspoken assertion that women assuming control over aspects of their environment for the purpose of risk reduction is automatically unreasonable specifically when doing so relates to rape because it's related to rape, and the unspoken assertion that any time a woman is unhappy with aspects of a sexual encounter, she was raped.

With these in mind, feminist "logic" proceeds by labeling women's regret of their own choices preceding or during a sexual encounter "self-blame."

This leads to step 2,

2) "Women 'self-blame' after experiencing (anything feminists define as) a rape."

Or in specific cases,

2) "This woman is 'self-blaming.'

Because feminists have already labeled these encounters "rape" whether the female's ability to refuse was contravened or she now regrets a conscious choice to consent, they fall right into affirming the consequent.

3) "Therefore, they are victims of sexual-violence-based trauma."

This leads to the assertion that discussion on the ability of women to take control over any factors surrounding incidents feminists want to call rape (which include rape, but also include regretted consensual sex acts) is victim blaming. That is how feminists argue that being upset about a sexual encounter makes it rape regardless of what happened during the encounter, and use "victim blaming" as a thought-terminating cliche to stifle rational discussion on the topic.

Their argument is invalid in several places.

That the discussion is about rape and not some other area of risk does not change what is and what is not a reasonable expectation of personal responsibility for one's own safety. Feminists argue as if it does.
The presumption that assuming control over your environment is automatically unreasonable is bullshit. That something can be stretched to an unreasonable level (for example, never wearing red because you were wearing red when you got shot) does not make responses to one's environment (for example, wearing your seatbelt because you know that impact could send you through the windshield without it) unreasonable.
The presumption that a sexual choice regretted by a woman indicates that she was raped is also bullshit. Humans regularly make decisions we regret without being told that since we regret the decision, it must have been imposed on us from the outside. Force, coercion, or incapacitation are ways of imposing. When an individual simply makes a bad decision, it's not imposed, and it's not unreasonable to feel responsible instead of victimized. A woman who did something while drunk that when sober she realizes was a bad idea is not the victim that a woman who was raped while passed out or unresponsive would be.
The consequent doesn't prove the antecedent. Assuming responsibility for factors under one's control which can affect the outcome of a circumstance is not necessarily an illegitimate conclusion, even when not all of the factors one encountered in said circumstance were under one's control. Changing one's behavior to avoid the consequences of a bad decision is not automatically a sign of trauma. It's a sign of learning. To qualify as an irrational response to trauma, that change must be unproductive as a means of improving one's situation with respect to risk, or so burdensome that its drawbacks outweigh its benefits.

[–]anna_e_banana 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Can you please explain how rape "can" be traumatic? How is someone stripping you of your self worth and agency ever not traumatic? Rape is when you did not consent to sex. It happens; it is traumatic.

Using larger than necessary words does not make your argument any more persuasive. There are several holes here. You make an awful lot of inaccurate assumptions about feminists and what they as a demographic (aka human beings who believe that a person's worth is not more or less based solely on sex or gender) define as rape. Rape = sex without consent. If you do not understand what consent is, maybe try looking it up. For example, a man or woman who has had consensual sex and now regrets it is not by that definition a victim of rape. If, however, a man or woman did not want to have sex but was forced (and this definition varies depending on the situation- sexual assault in the military, for example, can look very different because the assailant may literally have the power to put a victim's life in danger if he or she refuses sex) and wishes later that they had fought back, that would still be rape. No one says that it's not a good idea to take precautions such as being very aware of your surroundings and trying to avoid situations that invite incident. However, if I have to work until 3am and then am attacked on my way home, it is the attacker's fault. I did not initiate the attack. No one says they can't prosecute a robber because it was late at night. It's still a robbery. And in a better world, no one would tell me otherwise if I tried to report the crime and have the attacker prosecuted.

[–]oneiorosgrip 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TRPACC 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (115 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (114 children) | Copy Link

You and I have been over this. We have a basic knowledge of what they are saying. Many of the "myths" are also strawmen, created by the same tendency that takes "no" as an answer to "do these pants make my ass look fat" to mean "Oh, so my ass is fat then?" instead of "no, your ass doesn't look fat."

That is the "logic" behind telling women that any advice anyone gives us about keeping ourselves safe is "victim blaming." You're not a victim if the misfortune hasn't befallen you, or a crime hasn't been committed against you, and you're not a victim if you hurt yourself doing something stupid. "You don't have to take that shit" is not "It's your fault if this happens to you," but that is exactly how feminists take it.

And they use that perspective to try to keep women from empowering ourselves, and to exploit the narrative they've created that every woman is terribly endangered (and women only,) as supposed justification for feminist attacks on due process, masculinity in general, and female independence.

*edit

The argument that Typhon is arguing that the "rape culture" of feminist imagining does not exist is based on the assumption that said "rape culture" is equally applicable. Feminists have deliberately arranged and manipulated their research and reporting to avoid applying their theories to sexual victimization of men. The "rape culture" of feminist imagining is designed to not apply when the same conditions exist for men. When those conditions exist for men, one may call that a rape culture, but it's not of feminist imagining. It's an attempt to apply logic and reasoning to a flawed premise.

*edit 2 http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/20mj43/nice_activism/cg5o45m

[–]TRPACC 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (45 children) | Copy Link

We've had this discussion before. It's not about restoring agency. It's about denying people the agency to be safe in the first place, and about making women feel raped whenever we are unhappy with the outcome of a sexual encounter.

You offered me in the past what you thought was evidence to support your claim, but which turned out to be feminist writing which attempted to make the claim "If A, then B. B, therefore A." Feminists treat acknowledgement of the tendency of self-blame in traumatized people as a reversible factor wherein taking responsibility for one's actions following an event with which one isn't happy (even when it isn't rape) can be interpreted as self-blame and considered evidence that one was victimized. They've turned the terminology used to treat accident survivors and recovering warriors to turn "victim blaming" into a thought-terminating cliche. That is a flaw in logic that debunks their entire claim.

[–]TRPACC 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

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[–]oneiorosgrip2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Its largely irrelevant that hyperbolic sjw's use victim blaming as a thought terminating cliche when mra's start giving out their personal responsibility lectures.

No, here, you're arguing the wrong point. MRAs don't just hand out those lectures unprompted (and if you are going to argue that they do, you need to find an MRA who did it before 1993 when the so-called "rape epidemic" exploded onto the public scene.) This is a chicken/egg thing, where you're arguing as if the egg came first, when it was the hens that began the discussion. The "response" to said advice is a strawman created to trigger people into arguing that the "advice," which wasn't given in the first place, is legitimate advice.

It works as a trigger of the methods feminists combine in articulating and arguing it, not because there's a "rape culture" as they describe it. "You don't understand" isn't a rational argument, but a teenage fit of pique. Address the flaws in your logic (circular reasoning, affirming the consequent) as your argument has no value as long as those remain unaddressed, no matter how many times you repeat yourself.

[–]TRPACC1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Mra's have been handing out lectures unprompted since we mistook the slut walk for an argument against safety in 2011.

Then hyperbolic SJWs and trolls started screaming "victim blamer" back at us.

This solidified the mrms cognitive bias that there is a movement against personal responsibility and safety when no such absurd thing exists.

Here is more on the meaning behind don't blame the victim.

You will likely feel like blaming the victim. Why?

Study show that the entourage often blame the victims for what has happened. In fact, it seems that blaming the other is a protective function leading people to believe that the world is a safe a predictable place. To attribute the traumatic event to randomness or to society would cause too much insecurity, as it would mean that it could also happen to you. This can lead you to unconsciously deduct that it is rather the individual’s personality traits or his behaviours that are responsible for the trauma, and this can explain your likeliness to blame the victim.

You could also blame the individual for having or for not having done this or that in order to avoid the event. However, it is not fare to judge the actions of individual at the time of the event, because you are doing so with some information that the individual did not have at the time of these actions. Another factor to take into account is your actual emotional state, which is very different from the emotional state of the individual at the very moment he was living the event. Even if you know some details about the traumatic event, you did not experience it, you did not feel the intensity and the range of emotions. It is thus not fare to minimize the event and criticize the actions of the victim. It is important to keep in mind that the individual did what he could do in these circumstances.

It is very well possible that at one point you could blame the victim for the post-traumatic symptoms that also affect your daily life. It is not easy to see someone you love suffer. His suffering could make you feel helpless and even guilty, not knowing how to help him. His state could also make you feel angry. You might advise him, tell him what to do and feel like he is not making enough efforts to come out of this state. So, even with the best feelings at heart and the best of intentions, it is easy to understand how you could come to the point of blaming the victim.

http://www.osiss.ca/docs/RecoveringfromaTrauma_EN.pdf

[–]TrouserTorpedo3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]TrouserTorpedo2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why would there be a movement against personal safety?

Well, there wouldn't likely be one intentionally, but that doesn't mean it can't exist.

The KKK are an example of a movement against personal safety. Pacifists of certain denominations are another.

Thats the logical error the mens movement makes - objecting to victim blaming isn't discouraging people from being safe.

See, this is what the people running the walks say, and it misses the point somewhat.

Whatever the slut walks are meant to be about is irrelevant. One of the things they try to do is reduce rape advice being given to women, casting it as victim-blaming. Another is to categorise rape as innate to men.

These are bad things, and they're largely unintentional. But that doesn't make a difference, they're still awful. That's why the MRM objects to slutwalks.

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I'm just suggesting that mra's up their knowledge level so they can debunk all those stuff for real and in public, instead of beating absurd strawman in nice safe echo chambers.

I can totally destroy their rape culture argument, accurately in a couple of sentences because I've actually done my homework.

Influential people like yourself have been filling mra's minds with with absurd and complex theories and misinformation that you have come up with to fill the gaps in your own knowledge and the bulk of the mens movements continues to talk out its ass on this particular topic and there is no end to that in sight.

Leaving it to feminists like RAINN, and Laisk to be making the only comprehensible, digestible and knowledgeable arguments against it while the average mra is busy doing battle against a movement against safety, female agency and has a bunch of other absurd features, that doesn't really exist in the first place and lecturing people about rape prevention tips.

We never really got beyond the fact that SJWs use victim blamer as a silencing tactic, when we up started with our lectures about personal responsibility back in 2011.

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[–]oneiorosgrip1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are attempting to use a sales pitch here. I don't think you realize you're talking to someone who works in retail, and can see through that shit. Phrasing your claim in a way you think sounds more positive doesn't change the fact that you're talking about a group that denies women's existing agency in order to make women feel dependent on them.

Women don't need feminism to go to self-defense classes, learn to avoid or respond to dangerous situations, or otherwise take responsibility for our own safety. Feminists arguing that when we do these things or are advised to do these things in absence of their ideological rhetoric aren't helping women, but attempting to facilitate their own organized exploitation of women. Read some of the history I linked you to. You keep telling me to do my research. You have not done yours.

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Here's another way of putting this.

Feminist arguments applied to medicine would call advising not-yet-sick people to eat healthy diets and live healthy lifestyles to avoid preventable illness "victim blaming. The same would be said of offering vaccinations, suggesting that one not smoke, and admonitions to drive carefully to avoid avoidable injury. This would be done even though the medical community doesn't refuse treatment based on that advice. To remedy said "victim blaming," feminists would advocate that feminist medical collectives be funded for the purpose of teaching individuals to defend against illness by taking drugs when they're sick, and supporting injuries with bandages, casts, creams, etc. instead of taking preventative measures. This would be called "rebranded medical advice."

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[+]Manzboobz 12 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Stay classy AVfMers.

http://imgur.com/9g55tdr

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Title	Nice activism
Author	TRPACC
Upvotes	20
Comments	141
Date	March 17, 2014 12:55 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/20mj43/nice_activism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/nice-activism.1002666 https://theredarchive.com/post/1002666

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