The legitimacy of many points made in this subreddit is without question in my mind, but I do have a few questions?

2012-11-21T05:20:00+00:00

I would prefer for judges to rule on custody cases on an individual, case by case, basis... not using a "general rule of thumb".
Sure. It is possible that some are. The same way that NOW and the NAACP take simple misunderstandings and blow them up to try and make them into civil rights issues.
Unfortunately, I cant really answer this question definitively. I dont think our generation has had time to adjust to the new market. It is heading in that direction though. Our generation (I'm 25) was raised to believe that the ONLY path to success was through college. This gave many of us a bad taste for the trades. You are right though about the trades having growing wages and demand. This is due to a lack of supply. The old carpenters and machinists are retiring and there arent enough young bucks to replace them. I think our generation and the one coming up will realize this, and the market will equilize.
I think this coincides with Question 5.
This is absolutely reasonable.
It's every mans responsibility to take control of his own life. If he doesnt want children, then he should protect himself. If he chooses to throw caution to the wind and not protect himself, then he is still responsible for the consequences of those choices. The same should hold true for women as well.

ZenNudist · 2012-11-21T05:31:02+00:00

1) The "priority" should be given to shared custody, wherever both parents are fit and responsible and want to be involved in the child's life. Gender should have nothing to do with it.

2) You could say that any particular (read: nearly any) instance might be a misunderstanding or whatnot. You could say the same about any particular (read: nearly any) instance of discrimination against people based on race or sexual orientation. If you want to ask how many data points constitute widespread discrimination, that's a valid conversation but you had damn well better be ready to apply the same metric universally.

3) If that were true, then we would see the number of males attending college as inversely correlated with the job prospects in traditionally male fields. We, in fact, see the opposite in that for the last quarter century or so BOTH male college attendance and economic vitality in male dominated fields have been dropping.

4) The origin of a double standard does not in any way validate its existence. I don't care why double standards exist, I just want them gone.

5) Perfectly reasonable. Biology is not destiny, as they say, but it definitely has some some editorial authority in your life story.

6) Yes, absolutely. A man should be cautious about who he chooses to have sex with and wearing a condom should be the default, not the exception. Further, when a safe and reliable form of male contraception becomes available, that responsibility will lie equally with males as with females. Why wouldn't it?

themountaingoat · 2012-11-21T06:06:58+00:00

I don't see any reason for this other than paedophile hysteria. I think custody should be equal and you should too. Fathers are important to female children of any age.
Possible. But it is still a matter of concern that men are dropping out more, that men receive lower grades in school up to college on average. The education system is definitely neglecting boys.
Yes, they are there because of commonly accepted precepts, but I don't see what the point you are trying to make is. You seem basically to be saying that social standards are social standards.
This is what most MRA's believe. This is not what feminists believe.
Men should do whatever they can to help women with contraception, or use condoms if required, but ultimately women have more control over the risks of pregnancy, and therefore more responsibility when it fails.

AnnArchist · 2012-11-21T06:19:14+00:00

I believe that custody cases involving teenage girls should give priority to the mother. Is this reasonable?

Not reasonable. That's a good way to create a large number of adult women with daddy issues. To be raised properly, a child needs both parents involved wherever possible.

Is it possible that some cases of supposed anti-male discrimination are simply misunderstandings or results of other factors?

No. Its not possible. Its pandering in many cases of legalized discrimination or its an assumption that women are less capable of making their own decisions that causes much of it (like the sentencing disparity, which I find quite disturbing and insulting to women), for example.

Is it possible that we see male college rates declining because they are finding out that many male dominated trades seem to have decent wages and demand, but we don't see the same thing amongst their female counterparts because female dominated trades generally do not seem to have the same bright outlook?

No, its because the education system is dominated by women who in many cases favor young girls at the expense of boys leading to lower enrollment rates at colleges.

What if some of the double standards are simply there because of commonly accepted cultural precepts or statistics?

I'll concede that the sentencing disparity is largely sexist against women, while favoring women. Judges, both male and female, view women as being less equal and in turn give them less harsh sentences.

I believe that people should be free to be who they are, but I also believe that the differences in men and woman do have a biological basis. Equality is not making everybody the same, it is merely the freedom for those that are oddballs to be who they are without censure and scorn. Is this reasonable?

Thats pretty reasonable. Men shouldn't have a say in regard to abortion. Men should be given a good birth control option outside of condoms.

Do men hold any responsibility in contraception other than to trust that the woman is properly taking birth control?

Absolutely. Pull the fuck out. Properly dispose of your semen. Don't run around cumming in women and act all surprised when you knock a few up.

That said, that doesn't mean that there aren't changes that could make the world a better place.

AnnArchist · 2012-11-21T05:23:15+00:00

My own responses:

I believe that custody cases involving teenage boys should give priority to the father. There are issues on both sides of the aisle that, in general, the same-sex parent is simply going to be better at handling.
The answer is yes, just as the same condition exists in some cases of alleged anti-female bias.
Yes. I believe that this is the majority of the explanation for lower educational attainment amongst males.
I believe this is the case. For example, men generally have higher car insurance rates due to statistics. Similarly, women tend to have higher health insurance rates.
I believe that men and women are different, and that those differences are, for the most part, bone deep. But that there are oddballs, and there's nothing wrong with them being out of the norm.
Two people chip into the act, so two people have the responsibility to avoid unwanted consequences.

Phuzzums · 2012-11-21T05:49:09+00:00

I think it custody should preferably always be joint custody, but if that's not possible it should go to the most parent that offers the most balanced life (enough financial support and parenting time combined). I can see how, for the female hygiene thing, people think a mother is pretty much mandatory, but I think it's just further perpetuated by that train of thought. I don't see what the problem is with father learning about it and giving advice on it, even if he needs to ask a female friend about it, I think it would be healthy for him to be the one to help his daughter. It would make her more comfortable around men with her sexuality and body whereas right now it's almost taught to girls that they are never to even speak of it in front of men and makes them self-conscious about their body doing what it does naturally.
Most of the time I find it's misunderstandings, someone who doesn't recognize there is another side to the story because they are tunnel-visioned on the side that matters a lot to them.
I don't have stats to confirm it but I don't think it's a decrease in males in college, I think it's a huge increase in females in college with the floodgates opening on humanities and social sciences. If there is much decrease I think it's due to the economy and tuition cost changes over the last decade or two moreso than discrimination. There is some discrimination, or at least lack of attention for boys, in school before college but I don't think that's the majority of the issue.
Double standards that remove opportunities from individuals or their ability to be satisfied with their life or even harm them by demonizing a person who doesn't subscribe to them shouldn't be acceptable even if they are based on cultural preceptions or generalizations.
They don't have any rights so it isn't exactly possible for them to have responsibilities. What is happening though is women are dropping their responsibilities on men and shame them (or take them to court) if they don't accept a situation they've been forced into with no say.

mythin · 2012-11-21T06:09:34+00:00

Why do you believe that? Is that ALL cases?
Of course it is. But considering that any anti-female or anti-feminism discrimination is misogyny and clubbed with the law; somehow I doubt it highly.
I think it might be more to do with the fact that there are 66% more scholarships for women then there are for men. Couple that with the affirmative action initiative would probably be a better statistical start. Considering that the 'male dominated trades' aren't being infested with women, those being many of the high risk medium reward jobs, and not the cushy office jobs that women statistically gravitate to.
Any standard is something that is held either personally; or socially. The double-standards are a problem because women are punished more leniently, are more liable to get away with crimes, and are allowed to espouse genocidal plans, thoughts and manifestos without repercussion.
No. I agree with what you said, but would like to change one part; EVERYONE should have the freedom to do what they want so long as it doesn't adversely affect others(physical violence, children, pets, etc., etc.,) not just oddballs.
Both parties hold responsibilities in contraception. The difference between the two is that if it happens, the man has no options or power whereas the mother has both.

jolly_mcfats · 2012-11-21T06:41:44+00:00

All things being equal (both parents appear competent and capable of support), my feeling is that priority should be given to the teenager's choice, but I'm a programmer, and would defer to developmental psychologists, social workers, or parents who would have an opinion based on experience.
On a case-by-case basis, I think some are guaranteed to be. As with anything that doesn't have an absolute test and happens a lot.
I honestly don't think so. Anecdotally, I've spoken to a lot of bright young boys who just don't care, and have shattered self esteem. Statistically- I'd point to the age of drop outs, and the disproportionate application of ritalin. I suspect that increased class size also plays a role though, which I don't hear discussed a lot. I think that boys may have a harder time coping with non-participatory learning. We've put a LOT of work into making schools better for girls, is it really that strange that this would come at an expense for boys? Especially when the prevailing attitude seems to be that boys already have things biased in their favor, and already get too much consideration?
I think a lot of the double standards are there because of commonly accepted cultural precepts. I think evo-psych needs to have the tires kicked, but it seems a more plausible starting point than the premise that men and women are identical except for a few niggling differences. I also think that evo-psych should be studied to understand where we are, not to dictate where we want to go. This excuses women from a blame game, but it doesn't mean that I accept male disposability.
See 4, but also I believe in equal opportunity. However, equal opportunity does not mean that we should expect to see results that are equal. It may be that men turn out to be better on average than women at something, and vice versa. And I think it gets really sticky in cases where women may be more predisposed to FEEL threatened, and feel that this perceived vulnerability gives them a greater right to dictate behavioral norms.
That's a matter for the couple to decide jointly. There aren't any pleasant decisions after an unplanned pregnancy, and the couple should decide how much risk is acceptable for that. That doesn't mean that men shouldn't have choices. Also: additional forms of male contraception are long overdue. If couples that don't like condoms had a way of doubling up on the birth control, that would probably be a good thing.

2012-11-21T12:19:36+00:00

I believe that custody cases involving teenage girls should give priority to the mother. Is this reasonable?

I don't think so, personally, I think priority should be given to the better parent. I could humor the idea of boys going to dads and girls going to moms, but until I see a good argument for that sort of setup, I'll stick with priority given to whichever parent is more suitable.

Is it possible that some cases of supposed anti-male discrimination are simply misunderstandings or results of other factors?

Yes, but we'd have to have specific examples in order to hash it out.

Is it possible that we see male college rates declining because they are finding out that many male dominated trades seem to have decent wages and demand, but we don't see the same thing amongst their female counterparts because female dominated trades generally do not seem to have the same bright outlook?

I think the more likely culprit is the sub-par education boys receive in public schools. Emphasis is being placed on things to make it easier for girls to compete, but it's actually often a detriment to both since the methods of teaching that girls are more receptive to than boys are ALSO the ones that girls are less receptive to than the classical approaches. For example, phonics is better for teaching boys AND girls, however "whole word" teaching methods even the playing field because they disadvantage girls less than boys. Also, I think the plethora of female-only scholarships and affirmative action programs has a lot more to do with it than anything else.

What if some of the double standards are simply there because of commonly accepted cultural precepts or statistics?

I think they probably are for the most part, doesn't mean we can't do our best to patch 'em up.

I believe that people should be free to be who they are, but I also believe that the differences in men and woman do have a biological basis. Equality is not making everybody the same, it is merely the freedom for those that are oddballs to be who they are without censure and scorn. Is this reasonable?

I agree exactly.

Do men hold any responsibility in contraception other than to trust that the woman is properly taking birth control?

Are you talking about ideally or as it currently is? Ideally, I think they would have a responsibility to take precautions to prevent unwanted pregnancy, however I think that women have more tools available to them in this regard. Condoms fail, and apart from that, there's only surgery and the almost completely useless "pull out" method. I would love for there to be a male pill, but in the mean-time I would like a legal forfeiture of parental rights to be available for men. I think it's reasonable for the deadlines on that to be stricter than it is for women and abortions, because I think that a man who finds out they may be a daddy should give the mother enough time to determine whether she wants an abortion or not, and it gets tricky in this area, but I would be willing to compromise, personally.

mikesteane · 2012-11-21T06:18:12+00:00

In my view, the importance of the mother is greatest in the early years and thereafter the father's importance increases. Switching custody so that the father can have an influence at a later stage than the mother is probably a good thing in many cases. Your suggestion might imply an absurd rape hysteria.
Obviously this is possible, but in order to be meaningful, you would have to specify individual examples.
Yes. Here in Western Australia, for example, many of the brightest guys go to do trade training rather than university. Skilled tradies can earn astonishing amounts here. But this is not the main cause of the decline. The main cause appears to be school systems that are hugely biased against males.
They are still double standards. What if slavery is commonly accepted in some part of The World. That doesn't make it okay.
Equality is a myth. If all adult males and all adult females have the right to vote, the larger number of females means that the male group will lack power.
The issue of reproductive rights is far bigger than this. After conception ALL the rights, but not all the responsibilities belong to the woman.

atheist_verd · 2012-11-21T07:38:45+00:00

Are you assuming that the fathers are all teenage boys? I feel that the weight applied to custody cases should start out at 50/50 and only go up/down in either direction based upon proven facts about that person.
Sure. Same as how some cases of supposed anti-women discrimination could simply be misunderstandings or the results of other factors. Just as some feminist groups are starting to see how wealth disparity causes far more of the discrimination that is said to be done at the hands of gender.
Very much so. Men are taught from the earliest age that men are to be able to support a family (through family role-models and media) and if you can't, then you are to be looked down upon. Now, more and more men are throwing up their middle finger at this pressure and are doing what they want, but it has to be said that doing what you want does not often allow you to also purchase as you want and live as you wish.
Oh, this is completely the case and I wish more people would realize the danger of such acceptance. However, it can also be said about women, in that some of the things they state as discrimination are simply there due to common acceptance through culture and society. Does it make it any less discrimination? I would have to say no rather emphatically.
Equality is about making the choices that everyone has the same. It is not about forcing everyone to make certain choices. If you want to be a stripper, then go for it but you should not be unable to be one due to race of gender. If you want to be a Senator, then the same applies. Some choices take an enormous amount of work to accomplish (ever looked into politics? it is ridiculous at how difficult it is). Case in point: Just saw that in San Francisco, full body nudity is okay and some men are taking advantage of it and people are complaining. Very little complaints are had when women go topless in New York City. And tonight, my son (11) watched Starship Troopers after having read the book and during the co-ed shower scene,he wondered why it is not like that now. If we stop making the human body taboo, the sexualized nature of the human body will be lessened... shit, I rambled. I'm just pointing out the lack of equality.
Unfortunately, men cannot force a woman to take birth control before having sex.. the pill simply does not work that way. However, men CAN refuse to have sex unless the woman uses spermacide or a female condom or a sponge and so on, just like a woman can refuse to have sex until the man puts on a condom. As far as unseen contraceptives... yes, you have to simply go on trust that the woman is taking it daily or that her IUD is still good and so on. But then again, there is a lot of trust in regards to sex. Look at STD's where some have to be tested now and then again at 6 months to be sure, meaning that no test is 100% and look at the number of people having sex daily. I've seen pictures of what STD's can do to a person and their body... I am glad that my wife and I are monogamous.

Hey, that is what this place is for. Don't apologize for it.. in fact, keep coming back and asking us any and all questions you have. And thank you for coming here to ask your questions. Most write us off completely.

rightsbot · 2012-11-21T05:14:19+00:00

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2012-11-21T10:27:31+00:00

4- It doesn't matter why they are there. If they are harmful they are harmful.

VoodooIdol · 2012-11-21T15:16:03+00:00

No, it is not reasonable.
OF course it's possible.
Not likely, but there is certainly room for research to be done along these lines and the results would be interesting regardless of what they show.
They are, and it's why both men and women are fighting them (granted from largely different angles)
Yes.
Absolutely. We can wear condoms, get vasectomies, refuse to have sex without "additonal" birth control methods (spermicidal foams, etc etc).

rapiertwit · 2012-11-21T15:39:32+00:00

| I believe that custody cases involving teenage girls should give priority to the mother. Is this reasonable?

Why? Hard to evaluate the idea without understanding the reasoning.

| Is it possible that some cases of supposed anti-male discrimination are simply misunderstandings or results of other factors?

Yes - and the same applies to anti-female discrimination.

| Is it possible that we see male college rates declining because they are finding out that many male dominated trades seem to have decent wages and demand, but we don't see the same thing amongst their female counterparts because female dominated trades generally do not seem to have the same bright outlook?

This is probably part of the story, but the ways that schools fail boys in particular is also pretty well documented. This is undoubtedly a complex problem with a lot of contributing factors, some of which are not issues of gender inequality.

| What if some of the double standards are simply there because of commonly accepted cultural precepts or statistics?

What else would be the cause of any double standard?

| I believe that people should be free to be who they are, but I also believe that the differences in men and woman do have a biological basis. Equality is not making everybody the same, it is merely the freedom for those that are oddballs to be who they are without censure and scorn. Is this reasonable?

More than reasonable, it's a must for a free, just society.

| Do men hold any responsibility in contraception other than to trust that the woman is properly taking birth control?

Making a baby takes two people - so two people are responsible for preventing unwanted pregnancy.

| I don't mean disrespect or to be hostile, so I hope nobody takes it that way. I'm genuinely curious to get a snapshot of attitudes and possibly see some new perspectives.

I don't perceive any of your questions as hostile or slanted.

2012-11-21T16:22:25+00:00

There shouldn't be any rule. Whatever is best for the teenage girl.
Yes.
Yes.
I'm ok with double standards. I am not pro-men, or anti-women - I'm anti-hypocrisy. If men deal with double standards and don't complain about them neither should women. If women do complain about double standards, then men are gonna show them that they're are not the only ones suffer from them.
Yes. There are biological differences. I don't mind that there are differences. But...If women want to be 50% of the finance sector workforce, or 50% of physics department, I'm gonna demand that they be 50% of the drafted army and 50% of construction and mining workforce.
I believe men have a right to choose if they want to be fathers or not.

ANEPICLIE · 2012-11-22T00:52:29+00:00

I suppose this is more curiosity as to the general attitudes of the people here than anything. I believe that custody cases involving teenage girls should give priority to the mother. Is this reasonable?

I agree with others, case by case. Either gender contains a bunch of horrible parents, but priority is a silly idea.

Is it possible that some cases of supposed anti-male discrimination are simply misunderstandings or results of other factors?

I'd say a mix of understandings and denial. People don't want to believe that men are more than they think, that they are vulnerable. It contradicts what they've learned, and they hate it as a result.

Is it possible that we see male college rates declining because they are finding out that many male dominated trades seem to have decent wages and demand, but we don't see the same thing amongst their female counterparts because female dominated trades generally do not seem to have the same bright outlook?

As someone of the generation about to enter university, I wouldn't say that's the case. I'd say that it's because men are neglected in education overall. I really can't say anything definitive though

What if some of the double standards are simply there because of commonly accepted cultural precepts or statistics?

I'd say almost all the double standards are there because of culture. Logically, none of them should exist. As for statistics, most stats that are the basis of double standards are fraudulent or misleading.

I believe that people should be free to be who they are, but I also believe that the differences in men and woman do have a biological basis. Equality is not making everybody the same, it is merely the freedom for those that are oddballs to be who they are without censure and scorn. Is this reasonable?

Yes, however, some cannot believe that. It is legislative and cultural equality that are attainable and necessary. Biology doesn't change so readily.

Do men hold any responsibility in contraception other than to trust that the woman is properly taking birth control?

Responsibility? yes, for any children and for the mother till death do her part, unfortunately, whether he sees the kids or not. Rights? No. Should it change? absolutely.

I don't mean disrespect or to be hostile, so I hope nobody takes it that way. I'm genuinely curious to get a snapshot of attitudes and possibly see some new perspectives.

Don't worry.

2012-11-21T05:54:58+00:00

Explain why you think that
It's also possible that all supposed anti-female discrimination is a misunderstanding.
Maybe
I'm pretty sure they ALL are.
Yep, everyone's biologically different, but everyone should be free to be who they are without ridicule.
Responsibility, hell yes - on the hook if it goes badly, whether he wants to or not and regardless of whether or not the woman sabotaged it.

Title	The legitimacy of many points made in this subreddit is without question in my mind, but I do have a few questions?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	15
Comments	22
Date	November 21, 2012 5:12 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13jvj5/the_legitimacy_of_many_points_made_in_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-legitimacy-of-many-points-made-in-this.1008695 https://theredarchive.com/post/1008695

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