How would you guys deal with someone who disregards male issues

sowhatisit · 2012-09-17T17:56:04+00:00

As long as people are at least exposed to the fact there are some areas where men aren't being treated fairly. Next time they hear something about men's rights (especially if the messenger doesn't happen to be a female like you), they won't automatically assume that this movement is misogynistic, trying to hold women back, or somehow believes that men's and women's rights are a zero sum game.

I think you've done more than your obligation. You're not necessary going to convert anyone overnight. Just keep going to others.

MechPlasma · 2012-09-17T17:55:00+00:00

Statistics help. Statistics always help. Like these ones.

If you know of any for your country, bring up sexist laws that affect all men. Like for the US, you can mention how the Affordable Care Act only gives women free well-care visits.

And from the sound of it, he's pretty wrapped up in the "rape is a huge problem for women" thought. Mention how, yes, there's actually a good chance he could be raped too - again, statistics help, particularly the CDC one that says men and women are raped in equal numbers. If he lists his own statistic and it's below 10%, ask him for a source and look at the definition. If he doesn't have a source, assume he's talking about a Bureau Of Justice statistic, and then point out how their definition exclude woman-on-man rape if there's no butt-fingering involved (the definition is on their website). Then talk about how, if it happens, as a man he'll be treated far less sympathetically than he should be, and point out how many of the rape help centers are women-only.

And whatever you do, do NOT dismiss him as sexist or ignoring you just because he disagrees. If he's still trying to debate, then he's still taking it seriously. I've seen way too many people (mostly feminists, mind) who go straight into badmouthing someone just because they aren't convinced.

ibm2431 · 2012-09-17T19:16:44+00:00

Anyone involved in the MRM will eventually learn that it's not primarily neofeminists that are the problem, but men like this.

He's been trained to parrot those lines because they make members of the opposite sex like him. If as a man, you say that you're a feminist, or that "women's issues are more important", you instantly gain points with (most) women. It sets him apart from "other men". He's "not like them", he's "different". If he's on the "side" of women, women like him, and he likes being liked by women. If women like him, he's more likely to be able to get in their pants.

Chances are he's been internalizing this (over his entire life) to the point that he's incapable of seeing it. Either that or he's deliberately trying not to see it, if that defensive/deflecting "life's a bitch like that" line is any indication.

His "well I won't get raped by a woman" line is also very telling. How will he not get raped by a woman? Because he chooses to? That leaves us with either:

Women are raped because they choose to be; or
He can choose not to be because he's male - he has the power to prevent being raped by a female. He's a guy and could overpower any female attacker. Because females weak. Men strong.

To say nothing of his false presumptions that being a decent person will protect him from domestic violence or false accusations. He's a chauvinist who believes he's stronger than women and champions for them because helping the weak means a higher chance of sex from the women who'd be grateful to have him as an 'ally'.

I can't offer any tested advice on how to deal with such men because I usually break off once they reveal themselves. I consider myself as capable of being persuasive, but it's difficult for a couple of arguments to break a lifetime of conditioning. You can try to get him to examine why he feels women's issues are "more important" (and/or whether he actually feels that way at all or is just saying so), but I'd venture that you'll just get more platitudes instead of getting anywhere.

Just hope his red pill moment doesn't screw him over too badly.

Curebores · 2012-09-17T18:21:51+00:00

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

My-Work-Reddit · 2012-09-17T18:26:15+00:00

If this world is going to de-evolve into "an eye for an eye", "tit-for-tat", "quid pro quo" for every single issue; then, we might as well nuke ourselves now.

Hach8 · 2012-09-17T18:54:50+00:00

First rule of thumb is to avoid the oppression olympics. That's a game for the intellectually challenged. There is no reason to go into why men or women have had it worse, because presumably there's very no preclusive effect of advocating for men's rights vis a vis women's rights.

The fact that the person you were talking to couldn't get that through his thick skull indicates he isn't a person really worth engaging on the subject.

It might have been useful to point out his lack of empathy for his fellow man, while he was very concerned for women. His attitude, though not stated, seems to imply that men should just handle whatever happens to them because they don't need support and support should be rationed to "female issues."

Also, you could spend more time talking about more universal things, about how men and boys are doing worse in school by all measures, about how no one is advocating for anything to improve their position in primary and post secondary eduction, about how men are more likely to take their own lives, commit suicide, live for less time than women, and about how the mere accusation of rape is enough to ruin a man's life.

Those things tend to be easier to relate to. I don't know how old you are, but if you're still education aged, perhaps try this one. It would be more effective if you were talking to them in a somewhat semi secluded area, and really will only work with men. But ask them: "Does it not bother you that I could get you [fired / kicked out of school] and irreparably damage your reputation by merely accusing you of rape without a shred of physical evidence?"

Really though a lot of people just have an internal bias that is too strong to overcome and you shouldn't think too much about it.

crazy89 · 2012-09-17T20:53:34+00:00

You're fighting an uphill battle against three separate forces.

First, the media, culture, and academia all portray women's issues as the only important issues, women as the only ones who truly suffer, and men as the culprits who are the cause of these problems. This conception has been so thoroughly grounded in our society that overcoming it will probably take more than a few dissenting voices to get individuals to listen.

Second, we teach men, almost from the point of birth, not to complain about their problems. We teach them to "suck it up" or to "man up" and face down their issues themselves without asking for help or looking weak. This cultural reality feeds into the last issue.

Third, you face the problem, more biological than cultural, of men's (particularly young men) sense of personal invulnerability. By natural design, men are less fearful of danger than women. From an evolutionary perspective, this makes sense, as successful men were the ones who risked the elements and natural dangers to hunt and obtain food, while successful women were the ones who survived at any cost in order to bear young.

Evolutionary psychology is not an entirely reliable science, and people will argue over whether this reality is more cultural (point 2) or biological (point 3). Whatever the mixture, we know the results: http://gradworks.umi.com/32/62/3262188.html.

What this means is that you're probably right: this guy probably won't see the truth until it affects him personally. I imagine that's the reality for most of the men on this subreddit. I don't mean that every guy here has been sexually molested by a woman, taken advantage of in a divorce, or falsely accused of rape, but most of us have had some kind of negative experience with women that led us to ask questions about those faulty assumptions about men, women, and society.

You can't do much more than to tell people the truth in kindness. Even when people argue against something, that doesn't mean that it's not influencing their thoughts and opinions. Hopefully, in this case, you will have planted the seeds of doubt in his mind. That's how revolutions generally occur. With a million tiny pushes.

Keep pushing.

mishelalala · 2012-09-17T21:09:37+00:00

I think the main issue is about feelings, not logic. For him the discussion was just like "ugh, this person is trying to get me worked up and outraged about something, I don't want to get outraged about anything." Or that he feels pretty safe and secure and you trying to make him feel unsafe and insecure and a possible victim.

I think you should just leave him alone about it. Sounds like he just wasn't in the mood for a serious discussion about any kind of "activism" judging from his responses ("oh well, life's a bitch", "who cares?", "not my problem", etc.) Sounds like he didn't like you forcing an opinion and intense discussion on him.

When he thinks about it on his own later without you pressuring him it's more likely to sink in.

tkm256 · 2012-09-17T21:13:04+00:00

"Women's issues are more important because women can't take care of themselves."

ENTP · 2012-09-17T22:00:36+00:00

My usual tactic is to stick to the issues:

about 75% of suicides are by men

From the NIMH stats page:

Nearly five times as many males as females ages 15 to 19 died by suicide.

Just under six times as many males as females ages 20 to 24 died by suicide.

93% of workplace deaths and injuries have a male victim
Even though women are statistically shown to be the primary abusers of children (page 39 of this study), family courts are biased against men in custody disputes, and women are generally given default custody.
Men have zero reproductive rights, and are held financially accountable for children they never wanted, in a disturbing number of cases even underage rape victims have been forced to pay child support to their rapist (just google: boy forced to pay child support to rapist, the amount of results are disturbing)
Only 43% of University attendees are male.
The Gender Literacy Gap

Also, more males declared themselves to be “non readers” and were more likely to be secondary school dropouts (66%). In 2002 (Raymond 2008), 11% more female students than males met the expected level in writing.

Most studies show that single homeless adults are more likely to be male than female. In 2007, a survey by the U.S. Conference of Mayors found that of the population surveyed 35% of the homeless people who are members of households with children are male while 65% of these people are females. However, 67.5% of the single homeless population is male, and it is this single population that makes up 76% of the homeless populations surveyed (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 2007).

Non-consensual genital mutilation is practiced exclusively on boys in Western cultures.
Gendered legislation such as VAWA and law enforcement policies such as Primary Aggressor Policies and The Duluth Model have lead to male victims of domestic violence being arrested when they rely on law enforcement for help.

stemgang · 2012-09-18T02:29:23+00:00

"I hope it won't happen to me."

He's living in denial, not in reality. Attempt to awaken him gently.

Ask him if he knows any men who have divorced. Ask him if he knows any men who were passed over at work just for being men.

Ask him if he thinks it is realistic that these things only happen to other men, but could never happen to him.

2012-09-18T05:06:18+00:00

Recognizing how much of a disadvantage he is at as a man puts him in a vulnerable position he would rather not acknowledge. It's easier to pretend everything is just fine. The same can be said for fathers who insist on circumcising their sons.

jabesgeek · 2012-09-19T20:05:52+00:00

This guy is obfuscating the points, because it is hard for men to admit that they may ever be victims of anything.

Tell him this: "I understand that it's very hard for a man to admit he or other men may need advocacy, because it's admitting that he may be victimized.

Just because society mocks and insults men who are victims doesn't mean they should be turned away without help. Studies show 100's of thousands of men are abused by their wives, or even were molested by women as children.

These victims can't be ignored or they will continue the cycle of abuse. While this may not be your experience many men get the double whammy of being victimized, then being insulted for being unmanly enough to be a victim, in a way a female victim never would be attacked."

Let him know that this is coming from a place of care and concern, and that he can put on all the airs he wants, but there is overwhelming proof that men are victims too, and in need of help.

rightsbot · 2012-09-17T17:24:17+00:00

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FireTruth · 2012-09-18T00:23:28+00:00

the issues problem do effect men... are are tought early that sexism does not aplloy to them

many men are not concernd that women hit men at far higher rates... and yet women claim, men hit women more often on the front page of the new violence agsint womens law

there is a possblility... that lime most men... he was brain washed as a little boy to accpet sexist agsint his own gender.

most males are brain washed to give women a much higher prioairty and to put them first.

or perhaps he does not realize the severality of the issues.

or how importaint it is to fix this and give men eqaul rights and social .tanding/

2012-09-17T19:46:11+00:00

cut off their nads

Title	How would you guys deal with someone who disregards male issues
Author	mishelalala
Upvotes	46
Comments	25
Date	September 17, 2012 5:23 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1014ml/how_would_you_guys_deal_with_someone_who/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-would-you-guys-deal-with-someone-who.1013346 https://theredarchive.com/post/1013346

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