22 yrs old girl on financial abortion. Men, what's your take?

Legolas-the-elf · 2012-08-31T03:01:38+00:00

I wasn't aware of men's rights movement up until two days ago.

I've noticed a lot of hatred towards women, fear that there's an anti-male conspiracy

The reference to "an anti-male conspiracy" is something a former moderator put into the sidebar a long time ago. It was removed quite a while ago, not in the past couple of days. It doesn't generally come up in discussions here.

Where did you notice this?

truthjusticeca · 2012-08-31T03:21:29+00:00

b) I've noticed a lot of hatred towards women

It's an unsubstantiated and unfair allegation. The rest reads like a woman studies paper.

ghebert001 · 2012-08-31T02:30:20+00:00

Legal paternal surrender would be the most appropriate term.

In regards of getting the short end of the stick...the person with the shortest end of the stick should not have more rights or all the rights. Men have zero reproductive rights and no matter which way you look at it, this is wrong. If giving men the right to legal paternal surrender means sometimes women will have to choose between abortion, giving up for adoption or keeping the child with no support from the father then you know what, sometimes in life you have to make tough choices. You shouldn't get to have it easier at the expense of another human being...especially when that expense is for 18+ years and costs close to $100k.

girlinspain · 2012-08-31T02:04:36+00:00

REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS

Okay, so, before I get into the financial abortion, I would like to share my take on the reproductive rights in general.

I think this is the only thing that we can't really make equal because of physiological differences between men and women.

Women get the short end of the stick:

Women are the ones whose bodies are suited for giving birth. This means they have periods, they have to through abortions, they go through pregnancy, they go through labor, they have menopause. They also don't have any "neutral" choice in case of pregnancy, because it's either abortion, or giving birth.

Men do not have to go through any of this, because their bodies are different, and they reproductive systems are different.

On the upside:

Women are the ones who make the final decision whether to have an abortion or to give birth, since both requires her body.

Women also can also choose not to inform the man about their pregnancy at all, getting an abortion without the father even being aware of the fact the he could have been a father, or raise a kid without a father being aware that he is a father.

Men get the short end of the stick:

In case a woman gets pregnant and wants to keep a baby, meanwhile a man doesn't, woman will keep a baby and a man will be financially responsible for that baby.

In case a woman gets pregnant and wants to get an abortion, meanwhile a man wants a baby, she will get an abortion.

In case a woman gets pregnant, she can choose whether or not to inform the father of the kid about it, therefore man can be completely unaware that he's a father or that he had a chance of becoming one until she got an abortion.

Women do not have to go through this, because since their reproductive system is different, these situations do not occur.

On the upside:

Men do not have to go through periods, abortions, pregnancies, miscarriages, giving birth and menopause because their reproductive system is different.

Men do not face a decision between an abortion or giving birth in regards to their own body, they can play a part of a decision in woman's decision process, but they will not have to go through it themselves.

CONCLUSION: It's a really short stick, isn't it?REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS

Okay, so, before I get into the financial abortion, I would like to share my take on the reproductive rights in general.

I think this is the only thing that we can't really make equal because of physiological differences between men and women.

Women get the short end of the stick:

Women are the ones whose bodies are suited for giving birth. This means they have periods, they have to through abortions, they go through pregnancy, they go through labor, they have menopause. They also don't have any "neutral" choice in case of pregnancy, because it's either abortion, or giving birth.

Men do not have to go through any of this, because their bodies are different, and they reproductive systems are different.

On the upside:

Women are the ones who make the final decision whether to have an abortion or to give birth, since both requires her body.

Women also can also choose not to inform the man about their pregnancy at all, getting an abortion without the father even being aware of the fact the he could have been a father, or raise a kid without a father being aware that he is a father.

Men get the short end of the stick:

In case a woman gets pregnant and wants to keep a baby, meanwhile a man doesn't, woman will keep a baby and a man will be financially responsible for that baby.

In case a woman gets pregnant and wants to get an abortion, meanwhile a man wants a baby, she will get an abortion.

In case a woman gets pregnant, she can choose whether or not to inform the father of the kid about it, therefore man can be completely unaware that he's a father or that he had a chance of becoming one until she got an abortion.

Women do not have to go through this, because since their reproductive system is different, these situations do not occur.

On the upside:

Men do not have to go through periods, abortions, pregnancies, miscarriages, giving birth and menopause because their reproductive system is different.

Men do not face a decision between an abortion or giving birth in regards to their own body, they can play a part of a decision in woman's decision process, but they will not have to go through it themselves.

CONCLUSION: It's a really short stick, isn't it?

ForMensRights · 2012-08-31T04:49:10+00:00

A man is told he needs to 'be a man and take responsibility for the child he helped bring into the world' no matter what his situation in life is. Yet somehow women get to choose when motherhood is convenient for them.

Men are told to keep it in their pants if they don't want a baby, and society at large believes this is fair. Perhaps women should be told to keep their legs closed and we do away with abortion altogether.

As a male I have no reproductive rights other than keeping it in my pants or sterilizing myself and society at large seems totally uninterested in reproductive rights for males, even those statutorily raped...... So why should I continue to support abortion? I ask myself this more and more lately.

Hamakua · 2012-08-31T05:34:34+00:00

Hours old account:

I've noticed a lot of hatred towards women,

[Citation needed]

Men's rights 101: Feminist =! woman, Feminsm =! women.

And I'd say between 80-90% of new accounts that only post here are created with the sole purpose to disrupt this subreddit in an attempt to mischaracterize what goes on here and quote mine from flame bait. Good luck with that, it hasn't worked in months (over a year?).

rottingchrist · 2012-08-31T09:50:43+00:00

Why should men pay because women's biological systems are different?

If you don't want your biological system to become a liability, take care to use birth control properly, have your fuckbuddy wear a condom, use morning after pills if you are really scared. And hey, after all this fails, feminists (and us too, in fact) are okay with you aborting. And we are okay with you abandoning the baby by giving it up for adoption. Or just don't fucking have sex.

You have chance, after chance after chance after fucking chance to avoid any kind of responsibility for your actions. But why would you take any care about avoiding that responsibility when you can unload much of it on an unwilling guy and the state.

Phuzzums · 2012-08-31T02:42:13+00:00

My opinion: There is a physiological difference between men and women, women carry the fetus, men do not. For this reason I believe women have every right to abort the fetus or carry the fetus to term and cannot have that right taken away from her. That's all there needs to be because it's the only part of pregnancy that is effected by that physiological difference.

Forcing a woman to abort a fetus she wants to keep, or forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term that she does not want is cruel. Just the same, forcing a man to support a child he does not want is cruel. A woman aborting a fetus that a man wants to keep, although it may be cruel, the physiological difference between men and when means he has to accept a cruel situation.

tl;dr: Men deserve equal rights to decide if they will be a parent or not as this is not effected by physiological differences between men and women.

rightsbot · 2012-08-31T02:04:20+00:00

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girlinspain · 2012-08-31T02:09:40+00:00

Okay, so clearly I messed something up with formatting on my monster post, but I hope at least someone will read it :D

2012-09-01T01:13:54+00:00

How will society cope with a sudden increase in single mother families living in poverty, which will very likely lead to an increase in crime?

The concept of a woman needing consent for fatherhood being present in society - and the presence of financial abortion would broadcast that loud and clear, would dramatically change attitudes and behaviour, I think that the rate of single motherhood would drop dramatically because of this.

What is widespread single motherhood in the first place - but a belief in women that no consent is required from the man and that its ok to impose fatherhood on unwilling and unsuitable men, and/or the state?

Financial abortion would likely see great reductions in unwanted children and so crime and gov. spending.

zarquon989 · 2012-08-31T02:54:54+00:00

While I won't get involved in this discussion, I'd like to welcome you to this subreddit, and thank you for the effort you've put in to making a reasoned and respectful post.

I hope the replies you receive are equally civil. It's by engaging with the broader community that our movement will grow.

SDcowboy82 · 2012-08-31T09:00:39+00:00

You seem to mention quite often how the physiological differences between the sexes make this an issue that cannot be completely equal. This is true. I would argue that financial abortion still favors the woman's decisions. How? While a man with the right to forgo child support may put added pressure on women to abort the baby, she will still have the ability to keep the child. However, if the man wants to keep the child and the woman wants an abortion, there is still nothing he would be able to do about it. The end product isn't one that gives both men and women equal rights. Rather, it would simply give men some rights. As of now, they have none.

One other thing to consider, with child support responsibility comes serious consequences should the man fail to fulfill his obligation. Child support payments are often calculated off the man's highest potential income rather than his current income. Thus if someone is underemployed there may be no way he can pay the mother. He can be thrown in jail, raped in jail, lose his ability to find comparable work once released (being a former convict), and have all of this imposed on him without him being able to see his children. What I'm getting at is the current system not only forces men into this obligation, it can become a obligation that lasts for the rest of his life, not just 18 years. This responsibility is even forced on men who are not the father. A boyfriend of a few years after the child is born can be forced to pay due to assuming a fatherly role.

Humans have the right to self-determination. Forcing someone into servitude (where failure leads to incarceration) violates that right.

MechPlasma · 2012-08-31T12:45:39+00:00

The simple answer is that, if having sex shouldn't mean that a woman is forced to give birth if she gets pregnant, then having sex shouldn't mean that a man is forced to pay child support if she gets pregnant. If it's necessary, child support should be paid by taxes from everyone, and not shafted onto one completely innocent man who's only crime was having sex.

MechPlasma · 2012-08-31T12:48:45+00:00

Also, people are accusing you of trolling because very, very few people here have any kind of hatred towards women or anything close, but a lot of people who hate this subreddit think there's loads that do.

I don't think you're a troll simply because you said "men" when you meant "MRAs", so I'm guessing you've been seeing "feminists" as "women". Either that, or you've been really unlucky with what you've looked at.

mayonesa · 2012-08-31T13:07:18+00:00

"Justice" is a whore.

It's the most abused word in the English language.

girlinspain · 2012-08-31T15:27:14+00:00

Okay, people, I'm a reddit dummie, can someone tell me how can I see notice new comments?

I see that there are more comments, but I don't understand where exactly they're posted, so I can't read them..

overcontrol · 2012-09-01T23:04:11+00:00

When in a situation when two people did the exactly same thing, yet one can walk out and forget about it, meanwhile the other has to make difficult choices and can't possibly walk out and forget the matter, is not equality.

This is misandric thinking.

So men are stone cold creatures that can just abandon their children with no skin off their back, and women are unconditionally empathetic angels that haunted by their abortion?

Don't accuse us of hatred towards women when you believe shit like this about men.

girlinspain · 2012-08-31T03:27:48+00:00

Just pointing this out as a sidenote here because you mentioned it - I find it funny that the "extremists" and conspiracy theorists of MensRights are constantly fighting with the "extremists" and conspiracy theorists of feminism. Both sides think they represent their side when they don't, and both sides do nothing damage their own side's credibility.

2012-08-31T02:25:21+00:00

TLDR: Blah, blah, blah...blah. Must be nice being a 22 yr old chick with all the free time in the world to spend on Reddit. Get a job or a hobby for Christ's sake.

girlinspain · 2012-08-31T11:32:42+00:00

I'm not really sure how many of you guys have actually read all my post (and how many of you stopped reading after I expressed my opinions about the current version on financial abortion).

TL;DR:

Legal paternity surrender (someone called it liked that, sounds much better) should be an option available to men.
The current proposal that men can opt out when a woman is already pregnant is not equality because of our biological differences.

They did the same thing: had sex knowing that pregnancy is a possible consequence (it always is).

A man can say that he doesn't want a kid and walk away.

A woman have to choose between abortion and giving birth.

She can't say that she doesn't want a kid and walk away.

This is not equality (biology is to blame).

Men should be allowed to sign a legal paternity surrender document when a woman is not pregnant (so in case she gets pregnant, he's not legally responsible).

This is because at this point they're both in equal positions: they can both walk away.

This way, men get a say in reproductive rights, and an option to protect themselves from having kids and paying child support.

I think that's the best option.

Title	22 yrs old girl on financial abortion. Men, what's your take?
Author	girlinspain
Upvotes	0
Comments	87
Date	August 31, 2012 2:03 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/z42hc/22_yrs_old_girl_on_financial_abortion_men_whats/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/22-yrs-old-girl-on-financial-abortion-men-whats.1014608 https://theredarchive.com/post/1014608

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