Fellow MRA's I need some advice. (preferably from divorced fathers) Caution: Sort of long.

keeponthesunnyside · 2012-08-13T01:02:32+00:00

I'm not divorced so take this FWIW. You need to get control of that anger; I'm not saying it's entirely unjustified, but it is completely counterproductive. If it gets back to the court, it will raise major red flags AND give your ex ammunition to use against you.

Check out Fathers and Families, linked over on the bottom right External Links section.

It's great that you want to be a good dad to your daughter. Her life will be better with you in it. Good luck.

dumbguyscene28 · 2012-08-13T00:55:44+00:00

I can't really give you any good advice, in large part because my journey to see my kids has been so abysmal, but you definitely have my best wishes.

I will say no matter what never ever raise your voice or make any threats or else you'll be facing restraining orders and getting much less sympathy from a small pool of sympathy from judges or lawyers.

And find out if your state is a 1 or 2 party recording state. If it's a 1 party recording state, record every conversation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws#One-party_notification_states

And get a smartphone, either Android or iPhone and take photos and write journal entries and save emails and use something like a private tumblr blog to post them to.

djvexd · 2012-08-13T02:32:15+00:00

As someone who essentially did the same thing (15 years ago was married less than a year and divorced while my daughter was only 4 months) I will try and give you some heads up. At this point, she has people talking in her ear to take you for everything and make your life miserable. Even her legal rep , if she has it is trying to maximize everything to her benefit. Most states go by a formula based on your income for child support, so you will probably be paying the minimum amount. BUT you will get hit for back payment from the time you split with her until the decision in court. EVEN if you are giving her money for things now, this will not matter. Between now and then she will probably attempt to push your buttons to upset you. It happened repeatedly for many years with me and my ex, all the way up to my daughter was in 1st grade. After time and a fraudulent court case for child support she claimed to be owed (which she spent jail time for ) we have worked it out and are actually better friends than we ever were (could be just both of us getting more mature.) This is my next piece of advice , get a filing cabinet and SAVE ALL reciepts for anything involving purchase for your daughter and make sure all support payments are recorded and retain reciepts if possible. NEVER pay her in cash. This is gonna go on for a while, until you both can decide to put your issues with each other aside and focus on the baby. She has already proven that she will use the child against you as well as visitation, but after the court rules on visitation she is as bound to that decision as you are. My friend you have some rough times ahead and I truly feel for ya, and I will keep you in my thoughts. Just try and stay above the fray when she starts pushing buttons. Even if she wants to be uncivil about things try to be civil yourself, you'll be better off for it and so will your daughter.

nduece · 2012-08-13T03:53:01+00:00

I'm on the tail end of the same situation (daughter just turned 19, last payment done last month). Here is some advice from the trenches.

Document everything. Buy a journal. Every time you do anything with, for, or regarding your ex or your child, write it down. If she or anyone else involved says anything to you write it down. Write it objectively as evidence. This is not time for you to write "Dear diary today my bitch ex wife..." You must write just the facts. However, "just the facts" includes the impact her actions has on you as well as the impact it has on your daughter as observed by you and reported by anyone else. You want to show a pattern of aggressive, irrational behavior on her part. Over the years you will amass a substantial number of journals. Being able to show a judge a stack of journals, each of obviously different age, written in different pens and different hands over time, carries weight.
Buy a folder, binder, safe, whatever and keep supporting evidence (letters, receipts, confirmation stubs for certified mail, mail delivery confirmation printouts, printouts of emails, text messages, screen captures of her facebook page, etc). You need to become a private investigator. Pay $15 or $20 to do background checks on her periodically. If she has an outstanding warrant, surprise surprise. You never know what you could find. Online background checks are not that expensive, but are not as thorough as a real PI doing research. But that retainer will run $1,000 to start, so you can get 80% with your own effort and a few dollars here and there. She poor mouths to the judge and wants more support? Show the judge two years of receipts for all the child's clothes, school supplies, and gifts, along with screenshots of facebook showing her spending money like a drunk sailor on things for herself. Use her as a weapon against herself. You need to dismantle her lies by showing a chain of evidence proving her wrong. This is how law works -- someone makes a claim, and to counter it you need to dismantle the logic behind their argument with evidence showing they are lying, wrong, etc. You can build that chain if you have information, but if you didn't save it and document it, you have nothing to counter her with.
Monitor your credit report and mail for suspicious activity. If ID theft occurs report it immediately. This happened to my wife early in our marriage (ex signed her name on bills) and I did not report it out of fear of never seeing my daughter again. Huge mistake. Having a police visit 13 years ago could have knocked my ex straight. Plus even if she is not prosecuted or gets probation she has a rap sheet to hold up in court later.
Last, this is the biggest. You need to dial back the anger. Believe me I understand the gut-wrenching agony she is causing you. Trust me I do. But you need to look at this objectively. You are a young black male. Therefore in the eyes of many you are automatically a violent thug looking for a crime scene -- especially in the eyes of a court that sees that pattern daily. It is grossly unfair to you, and she will manipulate you into following that script and milk it for every drop when you have restraining orders for being "prone to violence". You have got to get that under control. You do not argue with her on the phone. Conversations are limited to "I will be 10 minutes late due to traffic." When she flips out, hang up and don't pick back up. Video tape the dropoff, show her flipping out and you being calm. Write it down. Arguing with her will only hurt you and ultimately your child. If she cuts your visit short, tell her (calmly but firmly, no threats) that she is violating custody. Look up the law in your state, print out the section detailing custody, and have it ready to hand to her when she does this. Then if she still cuts you short, accept it. For now. DOCUMENT IT and the effect it has on you emotionally, physically, mentally, financially, etc. If it helps, keep a second journal "off the books" and vent your rage there. But never, *ever** show it to anyone for any reason.* Burn it if you suspect anyone may stumble across it.

BELIEVE ME I mean it when I say I understand the agony. It rips your soul apart. But if you do the things above you will put yourself in a far better position to deal with her. I did not do these things and dealt with 17 years of bullshit. I didn't really figure out what game I was playing until the last two years and then it was pretty much too late regarding custody, but what we did since then still made a huge difference in our sanity and security.

Right now she is surrounding you and you don't even know what game you are playing. You are not playing chess you are playing Go. The objective of this game is to carefully, step by step, surround her with law, objective fact, witnesses, recordings, and your firm calmness. Box her in and make her move the way you want to. Her willingness to flout the law is wonderful and plays right into your hands. But your anger on display is her single greatest weapon against you, for unless she is a crack-whore running a child prostitution ring in the courtroom she is still a woman and you are a young black male, and "out of an abundance of caution" you will have the gavel shoved up your ass.

If you can do these things, it could take a few years, but you may be able to gain custody by proving she is an unfit mother. If you can do that, then you can, just this once, flip her off as you drive away with your child. (I still wouldn't recommend it, but I'd probably give you a pass)

Hope this helps.

duglock · 2012-08-13T13:51:29+00:00

I've been in the same boat. You aren't going to like this advice but this is what I would suggest. Have an impartial witness with you during all contact with her. That way it documents her parental alienation and will maybe help you keep your temper in check. All she has to do is say she is scared of you and you won't see your kid ever again.

VanillaSoul · 2012-08-13T07:00:29+00:00

You're getting some good advice here. Remember, you are in civil court, not a criminal court, so you have different rules. If you are accused of something, the burden of proof is on you to answer to the complaint. Never fail to answer any summons or you will be in default and lose. Also, you do not have a right to an attorney and due process is not as stringent as criminal court. Since you cannot afford an attorney to represent you, maybe you can at least afford a two hour consultation with a lawyer to brief you on your state's family law. Good luck and never give up the fight. Your child is worth it.

rightsbot · 2012-08-13T00:44:18+00:00

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td9red · 2012-08-14T01:49:00+00:00

You indicated that initially the mother wasn't giving you problems with seeing the child. but, now she is. Could the mother be suffering some postpartum depression. If your daughter is 2 months old this is the time period when it can really start to kick in. I know many guys think that the idea of postpartum depresssion is just a pussy pass. But, being the mother of a 2 yr-old son ppd is real. Could you talk to her about discussing her feelings with her doctor?

dregofsociety · 2012-08-14T12:20:16+00:00

I was with a friend who just went through this in Harris County. Had to go to court downtown to a child support building on Caroline st. Judge was a hispanic female and this is how he handled it.

Get an attorney and start getting screenshots of EVERYTHING that is online about about her. Every single picture and record the dates and times when things changed. You need to build a timeline and hopefully get pictures of her drinking, partying etc. Get notarized letters from friends and family of hers describing her character if you can. If you can capture screenshots of her badmouthing you or talking about trying to screw you over, you are golden. That is parental alienation since it's public.

2nd. Never pay her cash and if you can, save some money up in case she tries to claim you have never paid anything at all. You will be hit with retroactive support, expecially if you are dealing with the OAG without a lawyer. I would go as far as to not pay her anything at all without a court order. You are running a risk here where you can end up paying double is she wants to screw you. Keep all receipts of all purchase til then. I'm not sure if it will matter though.

3rd. Write down all the things you want in the order. For example, my buddy requested to communicate strictly be email and even has an email address on court order to do so. This has prevented MANY unnecessary immature fights since things are on record when using email. His ex acts much more polite now and he takes his time in responding to her. Another good thing to add is that transportation be divided between the two. He picks up from her and she picks up from him. That ensures that one parent doesn't try to move to the other side of town in order to prevent the other from seeing the child. You should also restrict the primary residence to remain in a certain county and/or school district. Once again, this makes sure the primary parent does not try to pack up and move out of state. Put a passport prohibiton on there so she won't try to take the kids out of the country. Most important, add a MORALITY CLAUSE. This prevents her and you from cohabitating or having lovers spend the night while you have the kids. In conservative Texas, this is a great tool and very useful if she has a bf or f.buddy spending the night around your kids. You can take custody for this.

4th. Control your emotions and DO NOT CATCH A CASE.

5th. GET A LAWYER. Beg, borrow, sell your stuff etc.. but get an attorney!!! The OAG and judge do not know or care about either of you. You will get 15 minutes in front of them and they will change your life for decades! They will not care about any "evidence" you have in journals, letters, pictures etc.. the one this is aimed for is your ex. She will know she can get screwed and will more likely avoid trying to take it to court. The key is to close your case as fast as possible and a good lawyer will scare her into giving in faster. Especially if the OAG is representing her, they don't have time to deal with details.

When in front of the judge, you probably will not have a written court order on hand, so the agreement is verbal and everything is audio recorded. Take a note with all the things you two agreed to, from the terms above, and make sure you SAY THEM where it is on record. The losing lawyers sometimes will delete or modify the written order in order to please their client, in hopes the other doesn't notice. The judge doesn't read the final written order and will sign it like that. Then you are stuck with something you did not agree to.

Finally, GET A LAWYER. Make sure you tell them the truth and you two get along. DO NOT USE DRUGS AT ALL. They can and will hair/urine sample you in that same building in that same hour. If you fail, you will have to jump through more hoops and your kids deserve a better father anyways.

If you need a cheap attorney, I could ask my buddy for his atty info. She took care of him real well and for a low price. With cheap attorneys, they will try to rush things but just follow up on everythign and READ EVERYTHING. Especially the final court draft. Good luck man.

Imthere · 2012-08-13T04:55:20+00:00

Edit Just to give you guys a taste of how mad she makes me. When she began arguing with me about seeing the baby, I literally wanted to bash her fucking face in. And I'm not a violent guy, I truly HATE this woman for the things she is putting me through just for me to see my daughter.

then you are not the type of mra we want in charge of defenseless kids.

you have anger control issues and they should be addressed.

Title	Fellow MRA's I need some advice. (preferably from divorced fathers) Caution: Sort of long.
Author	nduece
Upvotes	21
Comments	27
Date	August 13, 2012 12:44 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/y49n7/fellow_mras_i_need_some_advice_preferably_from/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/fellow-mras-i-need-some-advice-preferably-from.1016001 https://theredarchive.com/post/1016001

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