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Capitalism Is Making You Lonely

austin101123

September 3, 2021
11 upvotes
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/08/capitalism-is-making-you-lonely
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Post Information
Title Capitalism Is Making You Lonely
Author

austin101123

Upvotes 11
Comments 22
Date September 3, 2021 8:09 AM UTC
(4 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/ph0u9a/capitalism_is_making_you_lonely/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/capitalism-is-making-you-lonely.1067163
https://theredarchive.com/post/1067163
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Comments

[–]austin101123[S] 13 points14 points15 points 4 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

40hrs work weeks, hours spent commuting. Men spend more time doing both. Gotta eat, gotta sleep, take care of kids, chores. Where's the time?

We need reduced work weeks. We set the 40hr week a hundred years ago. We produce so much more and more yet we work the same hours? Subsistence farmers worked less. Where's the 30hr week? Where's the earlier retirement age? Where's the reduces commute times with better city building structures, or commute counting into work hours, or other solutions?

Not uuuuh sure it's entirely capitalism causing this though, a lot of it will be consumerism and advertising and other pressures which can occur under a mixed or socialist economy too.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I would say it's not capitalism. Various European countries have or are in the process of introducing shorter work weeks within the framework of a capitalist system (social democracy). And I don't see how a socialist system would radically change the need to work.

[–]austin101123[S] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

This isn't need to work. We could produce well past our needs working way less than we did.

I agree not entirely a capitalism thing, bad title.

A worker coop is not capitalism and would have more worker lifestyle standards including pressure for reduced work week and more weeks off, so there are socialist systems that would inherently be better in this regard. Even just better unions like we see in Europe compared to America gives the workers more power and they get more time off each year. And for having children too.

I don't view capitalism and socialism as discrete, but continuous based on control and power. Europe is less towards capitalism than America, generally.

Edit: This is from a british magazine, not American.

[–]dingoperson2 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Worker coop = start a corporation/stock company and include in the articles of association that the shares shall be divided equally among all employees.

Any electrician, carpenter, truck driver or AC repairperson can start a worker coop today.

Nobody does it because they don't want to. Just like communist leaders didn't let ordinary people share in power equally because they didn't want to.

[–]MathematicianNo4277 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

You are idealizing Europe. We work less, true, but still way too much. Plus unpaid overtime. Plus retiring ever older. And both members of a couple need to work to get by while 50 years ago one was enough. There's a burnout epidemic across the continent.

Social democracy is just a painkiller so you won't fight back when they punch you in the guts.

Capitalism is non territorial feudalism.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm not idealizing Europe. I was just saying that even in the capitalist economies of Europe there is movement towards the goal of shorter workweeks. I don't disagree that a lot more needs to be done. But I think it can be done within a capitalist framework (free markets, private ownership) with strong social regulations (what Andrew Yang calls human capitalism).

[–]MathematicianNo4277 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

We are both right (or wrong) here, because we're not using the same definition of capitalism.

You define capitalism as "free markets and private property". That is the big lie of capitalism. Like when feminism defines itself as "a belief in gender equality".

Ther can be free markets and private property outside of capitalism. For most of history, there were free markets and private property without capitalism.

The beginning of capitalism is usually traced back to the creation of the dutch Indies companies. Why? Because that's when it's defining feature first appeared: wealth as power. Like with feminism, it's in the name. The power of capital holders.

What defines capitalism is that power is acquired by buying shares in a company. Regardless of any ties you may have with the work done, of any skills you may have or not, of any support you may have or not among the people you get to give orders to. Buy shares, control people.

That's what capitalism is: a power system where unaccountable anonymous people can buy authority over others and inflence over the world without any check or balance. Without democracy.

Capitalism is alienation and exploitation by definition.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

What defines capitalism is that power is acquired by buying shares in a company.

I don't think this necessarily defines it. But it doesn't matter, as it is part of the system we live in.

That's what capitalism is: a power system where unaccountable anonymous people can buy authority over other and inflence over the world without any check or balance.

Nope, not necessarily. There can definitely be checks and balances, and in most cases there are.

Capitalism is alienation and exploitation by definition.

Not at all.

[–]MathematicianNo4277 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

There can definitely be checks and balances

I'm curious: what checks and balances do you think there are to the acquisition of power through money?

How can the system prevent evil psychopaths with money from buying people's jobs and make their lives hell without their consent?

How is someone taking the profits of my work without doing any work themselves not exploitation?

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Are you familiar with Andrew Yang's ideas about human capitalism?

How is someone taking the profits of my work without doing any work themselves not exploitation?

I don't think that's necessarily a part of capitalism.

[–]MathematicianNo4277 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I know Andrew Yang was a minor democratic candidate in the last US presidential election whose two main talking points were UBI and pro-science attitudes (with a cringy "asian nerd" element)

That aside, I'm kinda expecting a rebranding of the "realpolitik", "third way" social democratic cop out. Let's investigate, I'll be back.

[–]MathematicianNo4277 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay I'm back.

So I tried to read a bit about hisbproposals and I'm having a hard time figuring out his plan. UBI, other indicators than GDP, regulation of markets and money outside of politics.

All good things, but nothing new.

Am I missing something?

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So here's a very good looking proposal (in my opinion) for a mixed economy system based on the capitalist ideas of free markets and private ownership, but including far-reaching checks and balances to prevent the abuses of unregulated capitalism. I think this elegantly marries the benefits of capitalism with the benefits of socialism.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here we go: https://nltimes.nl/2021/09/04/trade-union-cnv-urges-30-hour-workweek

[–]Mahameghabahanacentrist male advocate 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's why mixed economic system is the best system. Not compromising with growth, development and welfare.

[–]BreakThings99 13 points14 points15 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Is anyone surprised? Father goes home late and exhausted. How can he have time to connect to his family? He's fucking exhausted. Schooling forces parents to judge their kids by how good they are at math, pushing a wedge between parents and kids. Capitalism insists that you, as a men, are worthless unless you're rich as fuck. So no one wants to connect with you.

Stop shoving me shit about 'growth' or whatever. Capitalism is incompatible with human nature.

[–]Talik1978 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

From the article:

In a capitalist system, many people don’t have time to see family and maintain existing friendships – let alone create and nurture new ones. It is difficult to make time to see people when you are, for example, working multiple jobs (often with irregular shift times), commuting, caring for children and family members, and doing basic tasks like cooking, going to the grocery store, and doing laundry, sometimes all at once. Social time often necessarily gets bumped to the bottom of the to-do list. 

For this to be an example of capitalism problems, 2 things need to be true.

1) the time sinks listed (time spent working, commutes, caring for family, cooking, obtaining food and basic supplies, doing laundry) would need to be more time consuming than under other systems. I dont feel this is true for many of those above.

2) the time savings from (1) is not offset by other time sinks under those other systems.

This boils down to "we don't have time to be social because capitalism". I am sure capitalism has its downsides (just as it has its positives), but I don't think this article competently illustrates that the reason we don't have time is capitalism.

[–]LacklustreFriend 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is basically true for most vapid "because capitalism" arguments you see online. The other prominent one is "capitalism is destroying the planet", except planned economies or other forms of communism/socialism weren't exactly known for their environmentalism either (see: Soviet Union and the Aral Sea).

[–]BloomingBrains 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

In a 2015 study, psychologist Juliana Holt-Lunstad found that loneliness is a risk factor for high blood pressure, coronary heart disease, stroke, and depression. An oft-repeated fact from the study holds that loneliness is as bad for you as smoking fifteen cigarettes a day.

I wonder if the research makes a distinction between what we might call "platonic loneliness" (I have no friends) and romantic loneliness (I don't have any romantic partner). Because I for one feel satisfied with my friendships currently even though I have 40 hour work week. (Although, I am an introvert, so take that with a grain of salt). I do, however, have feelings of loneliness that relate specifically to romantic desire...so is that just as deadly?

[–]Carkudo 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Romantic loneliness causes platonic loneliness later in life even if one didn't struggle with it initially. I never had trouble making friends and still have lots of social connections on paper, but in reality I never meet my buddies any more. Sometimes (often even) their spouses disapprove of them hanging out with the weirdo who's single in his late thirties. And between careers, kids, emergencies and aging parents, ultimately nobody just has the time or energy to just hang out. And on the off chance that they do, often the meeting just highlights how little we have in common now.

So, when you consider a lifetime, it's fairly safe to not to differentiate between romantic and platonic loneliness because the line between them becomes blurred early in life.

[–]BloomingBrains 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That's an interesting point I hadn't even considered. I haven't noticed a huge issue with friends being unavailable due to partners just yet, but I'm only in my 20's. Growing up, my mother always made time for social calls, my dad less so, however, she is an extrovert and he is an introvert. However, they may not represent the average. What you are saying makes sense to a certain degree.

In away I think it's kind of sad, but I can also see how romantic companionship would be just as good a (if not better) trade-off.

If what you say is true though, then it means that this issue strikes "low status" men much harder than other groups. Funny there was no mention of that in the article.

[–]Carkudo 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As a kid, my parents would do that too, the caveat being that it was with other families. I'm sure my friends don't spend all their time just working, they socialize with other people too, and I'm just not too high on their list of priorities.

As for it affecting low status men more, I think it's not mentioned for two reasons: first, discussion of male loneliness is sort of taboo in Western media, and second, the loneliness epidemic only began to gain steam about a decade ago and perhaps not enough men have reached a sufficiently high age for this to become noticeable. For contrast, I live in Japan where the loneliness epidemic arguably started much earlier, and both the isolation faced by older singles and the fact that low status men are prominently represented among them is fairly well recognized in mass media, even if it's not really vigorously discussed.

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