"should Feminism and Gaming mix?" ALL OF MY NO!!!

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Because it's much better to gun down hundreds of male police officers.

I'm just saying that calling the game gender equal or a good gender representation isn't accurate.

The key characters in the game have a good gender balance, but the enemies in the game are all men.

Possible Major Spoiler

The five women that die in the game are; A infected woman that's executed by policemen/army. A female police officer that's killed in a cut-scene. A woman that's gunned down in the street by bandits. A non-hostile female doctor at the end. And a woman that's executed in a cut-scene. Only one of those are by actions of the player, and she isn't aggressive towards the player. There's one more woman that dies in the game, but I can't be sure that you see her die, but you can see her recently dead body.

It just seems weird since women are shown in combatant roles, except when the player is fighting.

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[–]IHaveALargePenis 32 points33 points34 points 12 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link

It would be nice if women/feminists for once fucked off and created their own thing rather than moving into a men's space (after decades of berating it and the men participating in it) and demanding things change to suit them.

Remember revenge of the nerds? A movie that's about 30 years old? All those "nerds" are the ones in charge of modern technology. They're the Bill Gates' and Steve Jobs' of today and people love their products. They didn't have it easy getting to where they did, they sure as shit weren't given a green light for simply being men. So why is it that women aren't walking down the same road? Hell it's not even the same road since most people don't actively insult them or tell them they can't do it for simply being women.

It would be nice if feminists for once proved everyone wrong and themselves right by getting a bunch of women together and creating a new system/industry from the ground up which men want to flock to.

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[–]IHaveALargePenis 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

And here's the microsoft team. Yeah there's women out there, and their direct contributions affect the current system. But that's the thing, the current system exists in its current state due to their participation and primarily due to the lack of participation of most women.

So tell me why the current system is seen as sexist, against women, etc? My point was focusing on people wanting to change a system rather than be part of it. There's nothing stopping them from making their own games in parallel to what's going on. But instead of doing that (even though the indie market has really taken off), they expect things to change for them.

And speaking of Steve Jobs, you do realize that he didn't actually build apple on his own and that he didn't even code? In fact, Mac OS was developed on a team consisting of males and females.

Yeah, I realize Wozniak was behind it all, but most people don't care or realize that.

I would also go as far as saying that support was more important given that the fans were the ones who really shaped the gaming industry by buying what they liked and allowing what they didn't to fail.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]withoutmsg 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

This goes against my better judgment, I'm really only on this subreddit because Max Temkin just called it out on it's bullshit in a PAX panel. That being said, what right do men have to claim an entire subculture as "their own space"?

They ABSOLUTELY were given a green light for being men. You could argue that all the groundwork for games/technology was laid primarily by men, but also that was during a time where women were very strongly socially discouraged from learning programming and engineering. Women were raised in a culture where having ambitions outside of the bedroom or the kitchen was seen as undesirable and for a long time almost completely unheard of. By that logic the women were barred from participating it in the first place. You honestly can't argue that they shouldn't be allowed to participate because social ideals that are completely disregarded and antiquated stopped them from having a major part in the first place.

Also, you put an unfair and extremely skewed amount of blame on women for the amount of stigmatization placed on "nerds" back in the day. Sure there are women who berate gamers but I think mass media as a whole hasn't been doing that subculture any favors and to say that women are more to blame for that is completely unfounded and absurd. In the very movie you reference, most of the negative ideas about nerds are perpetuated by men.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

This goes against my better judgment, I'm really only on this subreddit because Max Temkin just called it out on it's bullshit in a PAX panel. That being said, what right do men have to claim an entire subculture as "their own space"?

That would be the right to freedom of assembly and the right to ownership. PAX, is that the place that was deemed to be full of rapists and child molesters after the dick-wolves joke? Then you should tell those people that sucking up to feminists won't help one bit. Give them a finger, they will chop off the arm, and then demand you check your privilge for still having a functioning arm.

Women were raised in a culture where having ambitions outside of the bedroom or the kitchen was seen as undesirable and for a long time almost completely unheard of. By that logic the women were barred from participating it in the first place

Cry me a river, won't you. I can't recall the number of times I have been called a basement troll for working with programing. I can remember the number of times the demo parties of the 80s and 90s were called "acne parties where the only woman in sight was named .jpg". But somehow both I and the other men didn't care what society thought and did it anyways. So why couldn't women?

Women were raised in a culture where having ambitions outside of the bedroom or the kitchen was seen as undesirable and for a long time almost completely unheard of. By that logic the women were barred from participating it in the first place

Just as how media are the ones perpetuating the body standards that so preassure young women,yet somehow this preasure always comes back to being atributed to men. Oh, and I could tell you story after story after story about how guys told cruel jokes at my expense when I grew up, and the girls did nothing to make this cease. In fact their only involvment came when I had enough of being verbally and physicaly assaulted and fought back. Then somehow I was the bad guy for being better att beating the crap out of people than my bullies were.

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[–]withoutmsg -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

But somehow both I and the other men didn't care what society thought and did it anyways. So why couldn't women?

You're contradicting yourself. They're trying to not care what society things now, but they had several centuries worth of other gender biases to get so you'll have to forgive them if they're a little behind.

Cry me a river, won't you. I can't recall the number of times I have been called a basement troll for working with programing.

Are the women who did this the same women that want to get into games? Do they have some kind of special power where their opinions are the same as every other woman who exists and ever has existed? I'm not trying to minimize whatever trauma you had from getting picked on, but why does one woman calling you a basement troll represent women everywhere?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]withoutmsg 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The contradiction was that you say that you resent women from isolating you because you liked video games, and now you resent them for embracing that subculture and wanting to participate and feel welcome. Double standard.

I did not say that men as a whole carry the responsibility for sexism in society. To suggest that is counter-productive to the goals of feminism because it is oversimplifying the issue at hand. Women have done their own share of perpetuating it and to put all the blame on men is not fair to them either.

Trying to find who is at fault for these problems is entirely missing the point. There is a reason why the civil rights movement didn't really get off the ground until people started to use means of protesting that were peaceful and less antagonistic towards white people. Gender bias is a very complicated thing that is perpetuated and reinforced by a lot of people, ideas, and systems. Identifying a single guilty party is completely pointless because it is both impossible and needlessly antagonistic towards men. True feminism does entirely blame men for the sexism in our society. It recognizes bias and prejudice as an unfortunate symptom of the human condition and calls for both sexes to keep a respectful and cautious critical eye on the way we think and the way we act in regards to gender.

I'm not saying that there have never been "feminists" who callously blame men entirely for the situation, but they are being completely ignorant of even the most basic concepts of sociology. That being said, jumping to conclusion that being critical of attitudes about women in games is immediately blaming men for any problems that might be found is not how a real feminist would intend for you to react. This logical fallacy causes the same kind of absurd bitterness and butthurt that is so prevalent in this sub and others like it, and makes people completely miss the point.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The contradiction was that you say that you resent women from isolating you because you liked video games, and now you resent them for embracing that subculure and wanting to participate and feel welcome. Double standard.

I resent them for first ignoring and ridiculing, and now 20 years later when it is cool an mainstream, the make inceasant demands that everything change to suit them. What kind of guest goes to a party and ceaselessly complains that the music should change, the food and beverages should change, the jargon should change, the other guest should be exchanged an so on. You know what kind of guest does that? A guest that won't be invited to more parties.

This logical fallacy causes the same kind of absurd bitterness and butthurt that is so prevalent in this sub and others like it, and makes people completely miss the point.

Try browsing geekfeminism.org and find a single article about men that isn't about How priviliged men are or how horrible men are for not changing everything to acomodate women.

[–]IHaveALargePenis 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

This goes against my better judgment, I'm really only on this subreddit because Max Temkin just called it out on it's bullshit in a PAX panel. That being said, what right do men have to claim an entire subculture as "their own space"?

They were the ones who created it. You know, back in the day when they were called nerds, geeks, virgins, etc? I was shamed plenty when I was younger for playing video games and being into D&D and so were many others. Girls weren't exactly into gaming back then, I'm sure there were some, but it was virtually non existent. Not only online in games like UT99 and Quake 3, but also in tons of actual stores/places where people played games. Those "internet" cafes or whatever the hell they were called back then were really popular in the late 90's and early 00's. Never saw any girls come to play there, or attend any tournaments, etc.

Additionally, why do you think games were so male oriented to begin with? They were catering to their customers.

They ABSOLUTELY were given a green light for being men. You could argue that all the groundwork for games/technology was laid primarily by men, but also that was during a time where women were very strongly socially discouraged from learning programming and engineering.

First of all, they were nerds and geeks. Nobody liked nerds or geeks back then, they were basically what gay people were in the 90's. Do you really think all those nerds were simply accepted with open arms? They were playing with computers and making their own back when nobody gave a shit about computers outside of corporations/military. They not only made technology cool but also useful and bearable for the average person to use.

Secondly women weren't discouraged from programming or anything else. The "first" programmers aka back in WW2 were mostly women. Then as computing became more complex, programmers had to learn advanced mathematics, algorithms and understand a lot more about computing than just punch cards. It may have been around this time as complexity increased that women were shunned away from programming positions.

Women were raised in a culture where having ambitions outside of the bedroom or the kitchen was seen as undesirable and for a long time almost completely unheard of. By that logic the women were barred from participating it in the first place.

Is that why all those movies from the 30's and 40's and 50's have quite a few female workers in the work place? I highly doubt they would put a woman in every movie in every office depiction if it was out of place.

Just look at all these oppressed women from the 1920's.

The gaming industry also began long after feminism, so it's not like women were barred from participating in it from the beginning. So why is it now, when it's so popular Hollywood is scared of it, when it's a billion dollar industry and one of the main methods of entertainment that women want in all of a sudden? Why not 10 or 20 years ago?

Also, you put an unfair and extremely skewed amount of blame on women for the amount of stigmatization placed on "nerds" back in the day. Sure there are women who berate gamers but I think mass media as a whole hasn't been doing that subculture any favors and to say that women are more to blame for that is completely unfounded and absurd.

From everyone including myself that I knew, it went a bit like this. Jocks and pretty much every woman hated nerds/gamers. The mass media (outside of blaming violence on video games) never really bothered nerds from what I remember. Yes there was the occasional movie scene where the nerds were picked on, but no where near the same level they were being bullied in school or shunned by other people.

In the very movie you reference, most of the negative ideas about nerds are perpetuated by men.

That's because they'll never make a movie where it's men vs women, not in the past and not today. Maybe one day in the future, but it won't be in the near future. Not when it comes to real issues anyway.

[–]withoutmsg 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

They were the ones who created it.

It was started by predominantly white and heterosexual men. Would you ever argue that only straight white men can play games? Why is gender any different?

First of all, they were nerds and geeks. Nobody liked nerds or geeks back then, they were basically what gay people were in the 90's. Do you really think all those nerds were simply accepted with open arms?

Then how appealing would it have been to be seen as a nerd who was also neglecting her "womanly duties" and threatening the status quo?

Secondly women weren't discouraged from programming or anything else. The "first" programmers aka back in WW2 were mostly women. Then as computing became more complex, programmers had to learn advanced mathematics, algorithms and understand a lot more about computing than just punch cards. It may have been around this time as complexity increased that women were shunned away from programming positions.

That timing means that many of the people involved in the beginning of the game industry were baby boomers, so right as those changes started happening would be when the people who helped build the industry were being born. The shift started happening because women were not as likely to pursue careers in math and science .

Just look at all these oppressed women from the 1920's.

So having their choice between secretary and receptionist makes them on an equal playing field?

The gaming industry also began long after feminism, so it's not like women were barred from participating in it from the beginning. So why is it now, when it's so popular Hollywood is scared of it, when it's a billion dollar industry and one of the main methods of entertainment that women want in all of a sudden? Why not 10 or 20 years ago?

Why does it matter what their motivations are? Why jump to the conclusion that there's some sort if alterior motive and it's not because games are fun and they want in on it?

Jocks and pretty much every woman hated nerds/gamers.

So if someone plays sports AND video games now do you give them a hard time? Women weren't the only ones contributing to this so why are they the only ones that get the boot?

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IHaveALargePenis 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It was started by predominantly white and heterosexual men. Would you ever argue that only straight white men can play games? Why is gender any different?

Because Black/Asian men didn't come in saying they were being oppressed and needed the system to change. They came in, participated like everyone else, and slowly brought about change by being part of the system.

Then how appealing would it have been to be seen as a nerd who was also neglecting her "womanly duties" and threatening the status quo?

Probably exactly like what these guys were doing. But they were walking the walk. They didn't get paid to make computers, hack them, or just toy around with them. They did it because they found it fun and didn't care what everyone else thought or said about them.

So having their choice between secretary and receptionist makes them on an equal playing field?

Well after the turn of the century women preferred to work inside rather than outside. This trend is still around today. Nobody was talking about equal playing fields, you were discussing how women didn't work back then because men were holding them back.

Why does it matter what their motivations are? Why jump to the conclusion that there's some sort if alterior motive and it's not because games are fun and they want in on it?

If games were fun and they wanted in on it, why constantly complain about sexism or whatever else? Why constantly demand companies change things for you, monitor peoples speech for you, and basically cater to you when you're still not a real customer to them. Why not pick up a game, play and buy only the games you're fine with. Then perhaps have discussions about future games on the forums of that game, etc. You know, how it's been done up until now. Nobody just up and demanded shit because they liked games so much but they couldn't play them because they didn't like almost everything about games.

And why not make your own at this point? There's lots of games like Minecraft, Braid, Dwarf Fortress, Fez, etc are all very popular very successful games created by one guy (although Braid did bring on some artists and fez some composers). Women could have complete control over their game without complaining about what it needs to adhere to. And if people agree with them and buy it then great, if not, perhaps they were wrong to begin with.

So if someone plays sports AND video games now do you give them a hard time? Women weren't the only ones contributing to this so why are they the only ones that get the boot?

Nobody gives people a hard time for playing video games anymore. There's still a few who call them man children, but in general, playing video games is fairly accepted these days. The jocks don't get the boot because they have become part of the system. They didn't demand the system change to accept them, nor did they demand it cater to them. They simply bought all the games they liked and none of the ones they didn't. Why do you think the FPS and sports genres have taken off and become so huge over the last 10 years? RPG's used to be huge in the lat 90's and early 00's, but now, not so much.

[–]withoutmsg 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Because Black/Asian men didn't come in saying they were being oppressed and needed the system to change.

There is a fair amount of outcry about the amount of racial slurs that get thrown around on Xbox live and similar services, but for one reason or another it hasn't reached the same level of media attention that pro-female gamer campaigns have. Maybe its because shit like this happens all the time.

Probably exactly like what these guys were doing. But they were walking the walk.

Can you at least recognize that if women wanted to "walk the walk", back then, there were substantially larger social barriers they had to cross in order to do so?

you were discussing how women didn't work back then because men were holding them back.

I said nothing even remotely close to this. Societal pressures that steer different genders away from certain careers aren't exclusively the fault of men, and to suggest otherwise is being unfairly antagonistic towards men. Gender roles and biases have been perpetuated and reinforced by women as well. To say that it's almost entirely the result of greedy men wanting to stay in power is over-simplifying the issue and any person who would tell you that is not a true feminist.

why constantly complain about sexism or whatever else?

"Constantly complaining" is a rather condescending way of looking at it. Your archnemesis Anita Sarkeesian herself said it is possible to both enjoy something while also being critical of other aspects of it. No rationally-minded person has outright demanded that certain games stop being made, but rather called attention to the fact that certain characteristics of them are so prevalent and what that says about society as a whole. I think someone wanting to examine something about our culture with a critical eye should be taken seriously for at least 5 goddamn seconds before they're labeled at "complaining".

They didn't demand the system change to accept them, nor did they demand it cater to them.

I'm sure if there were as many games as condescending towards jocks as there were towards women it would be a different story. If there were a disproportionately high number of games about nerds outsmarting and defeating people who are good at sports they wouldn't have felt as welcome and would have either spoken up or been isolated from that subculture.

[–]IHaveALargePenis 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

There is a fair amount of outcry about the amount of racial slurs that get thrown around on Xbox live and similar services, but for one reason or another it hasn't reached the same level of media attention that pro-female gamer campaigns have. Maybe its because shit like this happens all the time.

That problem primarily lies with the increase of children having access to online games. Kids didn't really act like that in the 90's when I was playing online, but that's probably because you needed to actually be intelligent enough to install games and run them on a PC.

And do you know the meaning "don't feed the trolls"? Yeah, you're not going to go far in online gaming let alone the internet when you get offended at every comment. I've had people call me all sorts of things, I simply just change teams and focus on them until they leave. And that's when they don't take the hint when I say "shut up and play".

I don't cry a river when feminists call me a fedora wearing, basement dwelling neck beard. But they do seem quite offended if they were to ever be called an obese bull dyke, not that I really do that.

Can you at least recognize that if women wanted to "walk the walk", back then, there were substantially larger social barriers they had to cross in order to do so?

Like? All they had to do was form a little group and do as they saw fit. These guys were social outcasts during their time. The knowledge and expertise they built propelled them into wealth most people don't see. Wozniak never even bragged, even though he built one of the first "modernish" personal computers, help create apple from the ground up and knew/knows more about technology than most people.

Another good example would be Stan Lee. I was never really into comic books, but it seems ever since Hollywood picked him up he's become quite famous. He's been doing this since the 50's, but he's only been in movies since 2000 when Hollywood made heroes famous and cashed in big time.

I said nothing even remotely close to this. Societal pressures that steer different genders away from certain careers aren't exclusively the fault of men, and to suggest otherwise is being unfairly antagonistic towards men. Gender roles and biases have been perpetuated and reinforced by women as well. To say that it's almost entirely the result of greedy men wanting to stay in power is over-simplifying the issue and any person who would tell you that is not a true feminist.

You said:

Women were raised in a culture where having ambitions outside of the bedroom or the kitchen was seen as undesirable and for a long time almost completely unheard of.

Those women had ambitions outside of the kitchen and bedroom. In fact a lot of women had to have ambition outside of the home. Go to any Eastern European country, visit a village where people still survive off well water and the crops they farm and you'll quickly realize that unless you're rich, women need to work. Children as young as 5 or 6 need to work, everyone needs to pull their weight. And this is where civilization was over 100 years ago since the beginning of time.

"Constantly complaining" is a rather condescending way of looking at it. Your archnemesis Anita Sarkeesian herself said it is possible to both enjoy something while also being critical of other aspects of it.

She's just the one who's famous right now. This has been going on for quite a while. And from the videos I've seen, she seems to focus only on the "sexist" games, never the whole aspect. After all, you can't determine the level of sexism without looking at the whole picture. But more importantly, she's focusing on games that are 20+ years old. And I bet I could find a similar level of sexism (against men to some extent) by simply analyzing old Disney movies. Different media for different people.

No rationally-minded person has outright demanded that certain games stop being made, but rather called attention to the fact that certain characteristics of them are so prevalent and what that says about society as a whole.

They demanded censorship, constant monitoring, the ability to simply report someone and auto ban them if enough people reported them, etc. They also focused on only the "female sexism" going on. Because fit beautiful women is sexist, and so are under dressed women (slut shaming much?) in games. While completely ignoring what the men look like, or what's expected of the men. Look at Zelda. Link was supposed to save the princes and yet it was sexist. Sexist because the highest power in the land was a woman. Sexist because she was kidnapped and the game was geared towards boys, since girls weren't playing video games much back then. It's nothing short of a feminist fantasy. Most powerful person in the land who rules over all is a woman, and when something bad happens, the men will sacrifice everything to save her. But people need to complain after all, so here we are.

I think someone wanting to examine something about our culture with a critical eye should be taken seriously for at least 5 goddamn seconds before they're labeled at "complaining".

I'll take them seriously when they're unbiased and more importantly, they don't block voting/commenting on their channel because they don't feel comfortable with criticism or opinions that don't match their own version of reality.

I'm sure if there were as many games as condescending towards jocks as there were towards women it would be a different story.

Doubtful. After all, men get plenty of shit online, just look at communities like DOTA, HON, LOL for extremely hostile communities. People will shit on you day in and day out if you aren't as good as them. Yet people still go and play those games, they just create their own "NOOBS ONLY" games or something along those lines.

And how many games out there are condescending to women? Like really condescending, like if we switched the genders everyone here would be complaining? There's rapelay, some relatively unknown until the feminists bitched about it game that's about rape. But then there's "train your boyfriend" games where you use all forms of violence to train your boyfriend. Mind you although rapelay might be about rape, it sure as shit doesn't depict any form of violence from what I've seen.

There are plenty of games where yes, women are under dressed for the occasion, but there are also plenty of them where women are not only wearing the proper attire, but they're also badass and the main characters. So what's the issue? Nobody's forcing you to buy or play all the games. Focus on your own little gaming subculture. It's as ridiculous as me going to /r/funny and complaining about the lack of mensrights representation when you know, I can just come here to /r/mensrights.

If there were a disproportionately high number of games about nerds outsmarting and defeating people who are good at sports they wouldn't have felt as welcome and would have either spoken up or been isolated from that subculture.

And they were. Look at most of the games that came out during the 80's. It was all dungeon crawlers and RPG's. But then Wolfenstein came out. Then DOOM, Heretic, Hexen, Quake, etc. These games took off and people loved them. Then Half-Life, and everything else. Halo, one of the most famous FPS games out there was supposed to be a strategy game. But when they saw the success of FPS's as they were taking off, they turned it into what we know as Halo today and being a flagship game for the xbox, it really took off. So yea, jocks were staying away from video games until they found video games fun. They never complained, never demanded the system cater to them and never bitched. Once they found something in gaming that they liked, they joined in, and the rest is history.

[–]withoutmsg 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"shut up and play"

And until the game ends that's an entirely valid option, but did you look at that blog I linked to? The overwhelming majority of those are people who took the time to seek out that person once the game was over and harass them. Sure, things that stupid kids say during a game shouldn't necessarily be held at face value, but when they're intentionally targeting women and harassing them when they're not even playing them anymore it becomes an issue. Sure, they're yelling out racial slurs, but when they find out another player is black to they bombard their message box with requests for dick picks?

Like?

As stigmatized as that activity was at the time, the norm was still "if someone does that they're probably a male" Women were still not raised being told that careers in computer programming and engineering were options so that was an additional barrier they had to overcome, making them a stark minority in that field. I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot.

You said: Women were raised in a culture where having ambitions outside of the bedroom or the kitchen was seen as undesirable and for a long time almost completely unheard of.

You appear to be gleefully ignoring my point. When did I say that men were ENTIRELY to blame for this?

Those women had ambitions outside of the kitchen and bedroom. In fact a lot of women had to have ambition outside of the home. Go to any Eastern European country, visit a village where people still survive off well water and the crops they farm and you'll quickly realize that unless you're rich, women need to work. Children as young as 5 or 6 need to work, everyone needs to pull their weight. And this is where civilization was over 100 years ago since the beginning of time.

Saying things are shittier somewhere else isn't a good way to refute their point. Could you justify stabbing someone by pointing to a person that got stabbed twice?

And from the videos I've seen, she seems to focus only on the "sexist" games, never the whole aspect.

If you paid any amount of attention, you'd have noticed that she has only released 3 out of 11 parts of her series, and within the first 3 or 4 minutes of part 1, she states that she plans on highlighting games that portray women more respectfully in a future episode.

They demanded censorship, constant monitoring, the ability to simply report someone and auto ban them if enough people reported them, etc.

That demand was never made, that is just the conclusion that you jump to. Does Anita ever say that the games shouldn't exist? No. Does she ever accuse the people who made the games to be sexist? No. She is examining what happens to be a prevalent theme within the games and what it might say about society as a whole, not the men who made the games or the ones that play it. The fact that you get so defensive and butthurt when none of these accusations are even being thrown out means that you and the rest of this sub has a really skewed and distorted perspective on what she's trying to say.

I'll take them seriously when they're unbiased and more importantly, they don't block voting/commenting on their channel

You seem smart enough to know what happens when you try to start a calm and reasonable discussion of gender politics on a youtube comments section...

games about nerds outsmarting and defeating people who are good at sports

DOOM, Heretic, Hexen, Quake

Yeah...I'm not sure what games you were playing, but I don't remember those being about that...

[–]IHaveALargePenis 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And until the game ends that's an entirely valid option, but did you look at that blog I linked to? The overwhelming majority of those are people who took the time to seek out that person once the game was over and harass them. Sure, things that stupid kids say during a game shouldn't necessarily be held at face value, but when they're intentionally targeting women and harassing them when they're not even playing them anymore it becomes an issue. Sure, they're yelling out racial slurs, but when they find out another player is black to they bombard their message box with requests for dick picks?

Well to be perfectly honest, I stick mainly with PC, so I don't have too much experience with things haunting me after a game. But I doubt microsoft would be as ignorant of the facts. Simply report them and get it over with.

As stigmatized as that activity was at the time, the norm was still "if someone does that they're probably a male" Women were still not raised being told that careers in computer programming and engineering were options so that was an additional barrier they had to overcome, making them a stark minority in that field. I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot.

And who was doing the raising? Most men were at work back in those days. The real issue is that women don't really care about careers when said careers aren't high on the social status. Most feminists complain about the lack of women in STEM, yet the vast majority, hell from what I've seen, all of them, lack any degree in a STEM field. The people who complain most are the people who least understand it.

And as I've said before. Computer programming was a women's field up until it became extremely complex. After that, women stopped participating in the field. Even today, programming 101, 50% of the people there are girls. Move on to year two, 20%. Year 3, you're lucky if you have one or two. It's a lot of work with very little recognition. Yeah you'll be paid well, but most people will treat you like a social pariah.

You appear to be gleefully ignoring my point. When did I say that men were ENTIRELY to blame for this?

I never did, I only said that women did seek work outside of the home, they had to, and they seem to have been accepted into it. Women protested a lot back in those days. Prohibition on alcohol was one of them. Not only did they succeed, but there's plenty of pictures depicting them doing said protesting. I saw a lot of pictures of suffragettes protesting, but not any that I can recall of them wanting more jobs.

Saying things are shittier somewhere else isn't a good way to refute their point. Could you justify stabbing someone by pointing to a person that got stabbed twice?

No, but I can justify it by pointing to old laws that treat women better than boys who are 10 or older. Every species on this planet protects its children, yet humanity seems like the only one that protects its women as much, if not more than its children.

If you paid any amount of attention, you'd have noticed that she has only released 3 out of 11 parts of her series, and within the first 3 or 4 minutes of part 1, she states that she plans on highlighting games that portray women more respectfully in a future episode.

She was also what? Almost a year late to that party? Even though she received enough funding to live well for half a decade without needing a job? Hard to take her seriously in the first place, especially after that.

That demand was never made, that is just the conclusion that you jump to.

You know what I hate most about these arguments? That I have to waste my time digging shit up from the past to prove people like you wrong. Here's an example. In fact, looking back I can see you yourself linked to one of the sites where women/feminists were making those exact demands.

Does Anita ever say that the games shouldn't exist? No. Does she ever accuse the people who made the games to be sexist? No. She is examining what happens to be a prevalent theme within the games and what it might say about society as a whole, not the men who made the games or the ones that play it.

Once again you are incapable of staying on topic. Nobody's focusing on Anita. She was mentioned back and forth before, but nobody is talking about her, she is not the issue here. Stop trying to make her the issue. Try to look at the issue as a whole, not just what one person says.

The fact that you get so defensive and butthurt when none of these accusations are even being thrown out means that you and the rest of this sub has a really skewed and distorted perspective on what she's trying to say.

Again, not about any one person. Here's another concerned person talking about something that never happened. Glad to know that you know better than me what has and hasn't happened when it comes to gaming in recent history.

You seem smart enough to know what happens when you try to start a calm and reasonable discussion of gender politics on a youtube comments section...

It doesn't matter. She's not forced to read any of those comments. Blocking them doesn't do a disservice to her since she's obviously shown that she's not interested in other peoples opinions. What it does do is prevent any future viewers from getting a second hand opinion. After all, when I recently had to look for her Masters Thesis, she took it down from her website about 2 years ago. I had to scour the internet to find it. Why would someone so strong and empowered try to avoid all forms of criticism? Even when it's happening on some forum she'll never see.

Yeah...I'm not sure what games you were playing, but I don't remember those being about that..

You just quoted yourself and myself in that post. What I was talking about if you didn't even bother to read, is that when games didn't suit the jocks, the jocks didn't participate. They also didn't bitch about how gaming had to change for them. When games suited them and they found them fun, they started to become "gamers". Doesn't take a fucking PhD to process that.

[–]Cthulusbaby 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

what right do men have to claim an entire subculture as "their own space"?

When they are the overwhelming majority of consumers for it? Seriously, look at the demographics of men vs women for games like COD and Gears of War and explain how these online communities AREN'T male spaces?

I don't want female soldiers in my games about elite special forces, because in real life there are no female navy seals or SAS. Women just don't belong, there's no need for them in these games. I like my shoot-em-ups to be testosterone fuelled aggression simulators, not equal opportunity political propaganda.

It's exactly the same as a small but vocal minority of men complaining about male representation in sappy romance movies, and a shit ton of other men jumping on the bandwagon even though they've got no actual interest in it.

Also, you put an unfair and extremely skewed amount of blame on women for the amount of stigmatization placed on "nerds" back in the day. Sure there are women who berate gamers but I think mass media as a whole hasn't been doing that subculture any favors and to say that women are more to blame for that is completely unfounded and absurd.

I think you'll find that women are the primary consumers of TV media, and women are the ones who decide what is attractive and desirable in men. You'll notice that since the "nerd" archetype became more attractive to women, it's moved more into the mainstream and is no longer as socially unacceptable. You really think that is coincidence?

Upvoting you for providing an alternative viewpoint, but you're really misguided.

[–]withoutmsg -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

When they are the overwhelming majority of consumers for it?

So the majority should get complete control of it simply because they are the majority, and anyone else that wants to take part has no say at all? I don't see how men get the right to say that they "own" video games because some outdated cultural idea says that they're the only ones that play it.

I don't want female soldiers in my games about elite special forces

I don't think anyone in their right mind has asked for women to be represented in games when the historical context would explain why they would not be there. And the fact that you read into anything including women in a perceived abnormal context as "propaganda" really says more about you than it does about feminism or video games...

women are the ones who decide what is attractive and desirable in men.

Yeah...no. You seem to underestimate the power of media and advertising, my friend. The people who consume media can certainly dictate it's content, but the media can also control the consumers, (the very purpose of propaganda, which you so conveniently brought up earlier.) Many people want certain things out of the opposite sex because that's what they are told they want, and not necessarily by people of the same sex, but people who have something to gain from them buying into the message (money, power, etc.)

A lot of ideas regarding what is appealing in men were created by things like television ads. An example: Have you seen an axe body spray commercial? Do you think a woman had anything to do with making those? There are enough people who think that rubbing that shit on your body will help you get laid to keep that company afloat, but did that idea just randomly come to this mass of people because woman decided it was true? No, the CEO of Unilever (a male I might add) decided that people would give him money if they thought that. This is a very specific example but I think it illustrates how ignorant it is to think that any idea about what women want in men is entirely fabricated by women.

[–]Cthulusbaby 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So the majority should get complete control of it simply because they are the majority, and anyone else that wants to take part has no say at all?

Well, yes. If you're a tiny minority compared to the overwhelming majority, it's just conceited to expect everyone to change in order to suit your tastes. If you like the game, play it. If you don't like it because it's got no women in it, don't play it. Simple. Most games on the market contain a selectable female protagonist or female main characters. But no, that's not enough is it - ALL games have to cater to women and until they do the feminists just won't shut up.

I don't see how men get the right to say that they "own" video games because some outdated cultural idea says that they're the only ones that play it.

You're deluded. It's not an outdated cultural idea, it's called primary demographic. Have you seen the amount of males that play shooting games as opposed to the amount of women? The vast majority of female gamers just aren't interested in playing games where the main objective is to shoot people and blow shit up. They like games where you do stuff like build houses and manage farms. That means the few women that do play these violent games don't get a say because their opinion is so insignificant it doesn't matter.

I don't want "strong" female characters in my mindless violent shooters. There's no need for them. It was annoying when they forced female soldiers into Gears of War 3, they were out of place and none of the feminists play GOW anyway so it was completely overlooked in their "women in games" crusade.

I've said this before, but it would be like the tiny minority of males who like sappy romance movies banding together and deciding they wanted sappy romance movies aimed at men. They can piss and moan all they like but at the end of the day they're a minority and there's no money in catering to their tastes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you think a woman had anything to do with making those?

Uh, yes? Women make up substantial amount of marketing teams. Do you think all people in marketing act according to their scruples?

So the majority should get complete control of it simply because they are the majority, and anyone else that wants to take part has no say at all? I don't see how men get the right to say that they "own" video games because some outdated cultural idea says that they're the only ones that play it.

The issue is with women as a group coming in, making demands for drastic changes, claiming that in not doing so they support the oppression of women, and by and large not making games. That's really my beef with it, that and the women who do not take umbrage with the state of games being ignored or called special snowflakes.

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[–]Cthulusbaby 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I love how when the feminists are questioned about exactly which games have this rampant oversexualization, they can only think of "Dragon's Crown". I'd never even fucking heard of Dragon's crown before these idiots started complaining about it. Seriously, that's the best they can do - an obscure japanese beat-em-up? Where's the overwhelming amount of sexism they keep complaining about? I can't see any, if anything I see publishers bending over backwards to include female characters, even when their presence feels awkward and unrealistic. Here's a theory - maybe these feminists just like to bitch about things and don't really have any knowledge about what the topic is?

As for their other complaint about games with no female characters: Looking at the demographics for games like the Call of Duty series, there's a good reason why there aren't any significant female characters - it's because women don't play games where the main objective is to kill people and blow things up. In every single game where there's even a small proportion of women in the demographic, there's a main female character or an option to choose a female protagonist.

Apparently it's ok to not appeal to men in the media women are the vast majority consumers of (and there is far more entertainment aimed at women), but god forbid men have anything that primarily appeals to men.

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Title	"should Feminism and Gaming mix?" ALL OF MY NO!!!
Author	Trekkie1701
Upvotes	29
Comments	94
Date	September 1, 2013 11:14 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1ljkg8/should_feminism_and_gaming_mix_all_of_my_no/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/should-feminism-and-gaming-mix-all-of-my-no.1164927 https://theredarchive.com/post/1164927

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