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TIL of Castrato, a type of classical male singing voice created by castration before puberty. At the height of the craze for these voices from 1720-1730 it has been estimated that upwards of 4,000 boys were castrated annually in the service of art.

belly_bell

December 31, 2017
45 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato
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Title TIL of Castrato, a type of classical male singing voice created by castration before puberty. At the height of the craze for these voices from 1720-1730 it has been estimated that upwards of 4,000 boys were castrated annually in the service of art.
Author

belly_bell

Upvotes 45
Comments 31
Date December 31, 2017 12:23 AM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7n58pz/til_of_castrato_a_type_of_classical_male_singing/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/til-of-castrato-a-type-of-classical-male-singing.1173299
https://theredarchive.com/post/1173299
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Comments

[–]93re2 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's very sad. I wonder how many of them were also penectomized in addition to losing their testicles. Castration in China removed all external genitalia, including all the external penile tissue; parents would have this done so their sons could serve as eunuch servants in the imperial court. The boy's pickled genitals would be kept in a jar and they would get told that when they died they would reunite with their organs in the afterlife.

I read about the last Chinese imperial eunuch, who died at some point during the 1990's in advanced age. His parents threw his preserved genitals away after a few years, which emotionally devastated him as in their belief system it meant he would never get to be whole again.

[–]mwobuddy 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Whats important to all this is that emotional devastation happens due to beliefs and violations of those beliefs, whether or not their belief is real or bullshit.

You've kind of hit the nail on the head regarding the 'emotional trauma' of so many events in our society today. People think they're emotionally traumatized if a speaker 'microaggresses', or if a 16 year old has sex with a 40 year old (even where its legal).

Indoctrination creates emotional distress.

[–]93re2 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean, I'm sure it was emotionally devastating for him to have his genitals cut off in the first place as well.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

One day our descendants will look back on circumcision with the same horror and disgust that we do with castration.

[+]Americanknight7 -13 points-12 points-11 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Oh for the love of God, male circumsicion actually has health benefits and besides from a few nerve ending it takes nothing away from the men who get circumcised.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

If male circumcision has health benefits (usually claimed to be reduction of STDs, UTIs, and penile cancer), then why does (mostly intact) Europe have equal or lower rates of those conditions as (mostly cut) America?

And it should be a personal decision. It's wrong for someone else to decide how much of your genitalia you get to keep.

[+]Americanknight7 -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

They have much smaller populations than we do in the states, and rates stats are the most inaccurate stats. The most accurate stat would be the total.amount.

Your parents generally have your best interests and you can't make a decision when your a newborn.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

"They have smaller populations" - yes, that's why I said rates (i.e. what % of men get this condition) and not numbers (i.e. what number of men get this condition)

An equal or smaller percent of their men get the conditions circumcision allegedly prevents.

I'm not denying that my parents thought they were doing the right thing, and I don't think they did it to hurt me, but that doesn't mean it's right to circumcise infants.

When you know better, do better.

[+]Americanknight7 -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

But being circumcised does not negatively affect you. It only benefits you.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It removes the most sensitive parts of the penis.

Even if that wasn't true, it's not medically necessary, and thus, shouldn't be chosen by parents.

[–]93re2 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The prepuce is a specialized, specific erogenous tissue in both males and females. Therefore, surgical excision should be restricted to lesions that are unresponsive to medical therapy, such as lichen sclerosis of the penis (balanitis xerotica obliterans) or vulva, which is unresponsive to other therapies (e.g. topical clobetasol, intralesional corticosteroids, topical testosterone propionate ointment, etretinate, and carbon dioxide or laser vaporization) [99]. Preputial plasty [100] should be considered in place of circumcision whenever possible, so as to preserve the corpuscular sensory receptors, dartos muscle, penile mucosa and complete function of the penis, while avoiding abnormal exposure and keratinization of the glans penis. Although some cultures celebrate the abnormal anatomy caused by circumcision, many women [101,102] and men [103] have reported this abnormal penile/clitoral exposure to be uncomfortable. The male prepuce contains the vast majority of the penile dartos muscle that cannot be regenerated after circumcision. The preputial mucosa and outer epithelium provides adequate epithelial coverage of the erect penis.

The loss of the prepuce ridged band and the formation of an amputation neuroma are two further complications associated with male circumcision. Although a Fourcroy grade 1 female circumcision would excise less tissue than in a male, this comparison cannot be used to justify female circumcision. Excision of normal, erogenous genital tissue from healthy male or female children cannot be condoned, as the histology confirms that the external genitalia are specialized sensory tissues.

The complex anatomy and function of the prepuce, along with the fused prepuce/glans penile mucosa in the immature penis, dictates that neonatal circumcision be strictly avoided, as recommended by the Australasian Paediatric surgeons [88], Canadian Paediatric Society [89], and a paediatric urology textbook [87]. Removal of normal genital anatomy in children and infants should be deferred until the individual can make an informed decision [104]. If external genital tissue must be excised to combat a disease process that threatens the child's health, and is unresponsive to medical therapy., then the amount of tissue should be limited so as to preserve the anatomy and function of the external genitalia. All genital tissue excised from children should be microscopically examined to confirm the clinical opinion of the disease. As physicians and parents learn the normal anatomy and functions of the external genitalia, there will be greater understanding of its essential nature, and more attempts to limit its removal.

The prepuce. C. J. cold and J.R. Taylor: Departments of Pathology, Marshfield Clinic, Wisconsin, USA, and *Health Sciences Centre, University of Manitoba, Canada. British Journal of Urology (1999), 83, Suppl. 1, 34–44 (NSFW)

[–]GreatBayTemple 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Man, I get so angry when I read more about this. What the fuck is wrong with people?

[–]Oklawolf 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

When you speak of God, do you mean the one who apparently did his job so badly that we are to surgically correct it against someone else's will immediately at birth?

[+]Americanknight7 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Do you honestly not know the origin of the practice? It was not a correction, but a symbol of the Covenant that God made with Abraham. Also you do not have a will at birth.

[–]Oklawolf 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I am a circumcised Christian preacher's kid wearing a Jewish tradition that has absolutely no business whatsoever being forced upon my body. Galatians 5. I am furious this was done to me.

Yeah, I know everything about it.

[+]Americanknight7 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I am familiar with that verse, though given your background you should know that verse was intended for those who would say being circumcised meant that you were closer to God or more holy. Since some early Christians who converted to Christianity from Judaism tried to force gentile converts to get circumcised as a part of keeping God's laws.

Also why are you furious about it? There are still tons of medical benefits to it and though their is no religious requirement the medical benefits are still substantial.

Also I have never said that people should be circumcised because God wants it that way, I have always argued it from a secular standpoint of the medical benefits. Though I did give context to how the practice started with covenant between God and Abraham.

[–]Oklawolf 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Why should I not be furious with it? There are no health benefits. None of them stand up to close scrutiny, and where I now live in Canada doctors actually try to talk you out of it. I was cut to prevent infections, and they literally happened anyway. Yeah, something that can be and was cured in a week with antibiotics was instead treated with amputation. And because of that amputation, I had to wake up one day in my 40s, completely desensitized, and start restoring just so I could get some feeling back (restoration works, by the way... man does it ever work).

Someone... in the land of the free, home of the brave... decided I should not have the freedom to decide how much of my own private parts I got to keep. This makes me angry. How could I not be?

I don't care about the religious excuses. I hate organized religion. It's brought me nothing but pain and misery. I'm ok with my parents, because they didn't know better and did not use religion as an excuse, but I simply have no use for religion these days.

Anyway, I need to unplug from this discussion. I vowed not to let my anger for this tradition get in the way of civil discourse, and I think I'm getting way too worked up.

Take care. I do hope you challenge the science behind those medical benefits. If the science is sound, why is the USA the only country to routinely cut newborns, and only male ones at that?

[–]ThatNinaGAL 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I heard a tape recording of one of the last living castrati in high school.

Remember the Diva in the 5th Element? It was like that. It was a horrible human rights violation, but I could understand why a culture that valued individual lives so little and sacred music so highly would do this thing.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's here, the only known recording of a castrato.

One of the saddest and eeriest things you'll ever hear. It doesn't sound like any other sort of voice, which is perhaps why it was so sought after.

[–]putamanoutofaplane 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

In the service of God, not art so much.

[–]Imnotmrabut 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Western Judeo/Christian culture excused it as in the service of a deity. In eastern cultures, it had nothing to do with ae/music/culture but service to the Highest ranked such as Emperor. Also, castration was used to turn opposing warriors into slaves.

For those who wonder what the difference in music is, here is the most famous modern-day "Cock-alto", Andreas Scholl singing Handel's Ombra mai fu.

[–]bhavv 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

What if I voluntarily wish I had been castrated before puberty for this very reason? Obviously I couldnt have consented, nor known about it back then, but I would have desired a castrato voice immensely since I first learned about it and wished it could have happened to me.

Sorry I forgot the context, I am a single focused almost savant level autist in music with a music degree and would willingly sacrifice anything for the best singing voice if I could.

[–]MRARedPill 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I would look at this exactly like a pre-pubescent child wanting to be sexually active. Too bad. They don't get to make that choice. Just like if a child wanted anything that was majorly life-altering, with permanent consequences. The answer would still be no.

If doctors could figure out how to change an adult to match the castrati vocal range, then I would whole-heartedly support you in doing so. Just like with adult circumcision. I fully support adult men getting circumcisions. I fully reject the idea of infant and child circumcision. That's just my input though. Since you asked...

[–]bhavv 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree with that. I would consider taking estrogen supplements, but Im currently waiting for my first house to finish building to be able to rehearse and record in privacy.

I have a couple of demos done currently, this one is finished enough, the other one still needs improving so I wont link it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2POMx7MUCW4

[–]SchalaZeal01 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with that. I would consider taking estrogen supplements, but Im currently waiting for my first house to finish building to be able to rehearse and record in privacy.

Estrogen in adulthood doesn't change the voice at all. I seriously doubt it does before, either.

[–]MRARedPill 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Excellent singing bro. Keep up the good work!

[–]codaclouds 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

you'll never have the best singing voice you can if you're wishing it were something else. it may sound egotistical but all the great singers love their own voices.

[–]GreatBayTemple 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Now you're entering transgender territory.

[–]bhavv 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Im already gender neutral. I'll identify as a woman if doing so gets me any superior benefits.

[–]ThatNinaGAL 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If the historical accounts are to be believed, most castrati demonstrated significant vocal ability as children and neither they nor their families opposed the mutilation. It was an honor, and an elevation in social status. Still not OK, obviously. But not like the forced castration of adult warriors either. A different system and a more indirect form of coercion.

[–]bhavv 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I did too. Ages 9-12 I was the most amazing choir singer and pianist ever and my music teacher forced me into all the extra curricular music stuff and put me down the eventually useless line of studying a music degree.

Stupid teacher.

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