Don't become the enemy

turbulance4 · 2018-06-01T11:59:06+00:00

I like what you're trying to say. You should use paragraphs though. Walls of text can be intimating to read.

iainmf · 2018-06-01T11:11:15+00:00

But I also see the theme that women are bad in general.

Are you familiar with Amy Yeung's research into perceptions of sexism? She found that people expect others to treat women better than men and when women are treated equally it is seen as sexism against women.

Pointing out women do bad things, and the double standards about how bad women are treated and looking at trends in bad female behaviour, might look like we are misogynists, but we are really treating women the same way we treat men.

mrmensplights · 2018-06-01T11:43:51+00:00

The thing is, this sub operates in many different contexts for many different people. Some people are young and just exploring what it means to be a man, some people have just been through hell and are looking for answers, others feel something is wrong with dominant narratives on gender and are looking for alternative views. Others are just seeking support. Everyone from all of these backgrounds are at different stages of understanding their own problems.

And yes, some of the people here are angry. They are probably here because they, or someone they love, went through something awful. Something that blindsided them. There is always anger in the beginning. The anger is something they will work through and process as they learn more and come to understand what happened. This sub is here for those people as well.

You can always filter posts using flair; the sub has a comprehensive set of them you can see on the sidebar.

If it’s still too general there are other subreddits that are less general listed as well that focus on men’s rights in academia/studies, law, activism, etc

Lupinfujiko · 2018-06-01T12:27:54+00:00

I understand what you are saying about Japanese society. But I also think things are more complicated than they seem.

True relationships are dying in Japan. The culture of loneliness, in Tokyo especially, is over-whelming. It's like a thick, heavy veil hanging over everything.

This isn't only attributed to "traditional society". This has so much to do with over work, everything is zangyou (over work). And when you're not in work, you're on the train going to or from work. It's a crushing society.

Relationships are different in Japan. Here in the West we maintain this idea of "equality", which for us means "we are all exactly the same".

In Japan, the view is more that people hold a "role" in society. True, women are expected to stay at home and take care of the house and kids. It's also true that men are expected to work 70 hour weeks getting humiliated and pegged down by their boss.

Men are expected to provide monetary sustenance for women. Women control the finances of the household.

There is indeed a strange dichotomy for sure.

Men provide for women through money. Women provide for men through cooking, cleaning, taking care of children (if applicable).

Looking at the Kanji. 男 means "male". It's a combination of "power" "in the field". 女 means woman. "Ku no ichi" means "ninja".

Which, when you think about it, is very appropriate. Men are strong; but they need to be strong. And ultimately, it's women who lead the household (remember, they control the finances). Like a ninja.

I'm reminded of the Greek expression: "Men are the head. But women control the neck."

We've often heard told that men are like the Sun, women are like the Moon. I think this is a beautiful, and profound image.

In the West, I think we've gotten everything all mixed up. Both genders want to be the "Sun". If you understand my meaning. We only look at "what is"; but we rarely see "what is not".

Going back to your original point. Things are definitely "traditional" in Japan. But that doesn't necessarily give advantage to the man.

I wouldn't want to be a woman in Japanese society as much as I wouldn't want to be a man in Japanese society. Both are crushing traditional yolks which have been placed upon you at birth.

So I think you're right in one sense. Tokyo in particularly is a brutal city to live in. There is definitely traditionalism.

I think on the surface, the traditionalist society favours men, but like everything in Japan, you have to dig deeper than the surface. Once you get there, a much more complex relationship exists.

So I don't think traditionalism necessarily advantages the man. In some instances, absolutely yes, it does. In others, it absolutely does not.

In any event, I think this is a slightly different issue than the feminism movement in the West.

The Feminist movement in the West hasn't necessarily helped with our relationships. Quite on the contrary many would argue.

I don't think that "Feminism" is the exact opposite of "traditionalism".

I don't think the men's rights movement blames women. I think our great gender divide these days is more complex and nuanced.

I think that relationships being more complicated, and a lower birth and marriage rate are indicative of a first world economy. As we can see, both Western cultures and Japanese cultures have issues with modern relationships.

I remember what I wanted to say: Men's rights is not a push to return to traditional values. That's not the goal of men's rights. The goal is to recognize that we both have roles in society. We are equal, but we are different.

Modern day feminism is about female superiority. The men's rights movement is about equality.

This is evidenced by the goals and outcomes achieved by each.

bufedad · 2018-06-01T13:54:14+00:00

Eh... regularly scheduled tone policing: holding women equal is women bashing...

msleeduon · 2018-06-01T14:15:22+00:00

I'm curious how many MGTOWs you encounter are "real" MGTOWs, and what that means.

My bias on this topic is pretty clear: I think the MGTOW movement in general is toxic because it gives guys a way of soothing their egos over their dating problems in a way that slowly entrenches them into a hostile attitude towards women, which only reinforces the original problem. I'm not a fan of it as a movement. But if there's a better, more responsible, less automatically woman-blaming end of it, I'm down to hear.

v574v · 2018-06-01T16:00:02+00:00

You see the ‘bad things women have done’ posts as guns aimed at women and not as fortifications against the stereotyping of men. The famous smack down of micheal Moore’s ‘women are wonderful’ tweet is a great example of why those posts are made. https://www.boredpanda.com/gender-equality-women-dark-side/

The greatest argument against the negative prejudice of an out-group is the knowledge of the dark things the in-group is guilty of.

‘Women’s shit ALSO stinks’ is equality not an attack of women.

xtr77 · 2018-06-01T11:53:46+00:00

People that use MGTOW as a toll to shame and exploit women comes in mind

Wat. Did you even know what those letters mean? Did you write this or did Google translate help you out?

chomponthebit · 2018-06-01T10:29:11+00:00

He’s got a point. We need women as allies. Nine out of ten posts on this sub are devoted to women-bashing and feminist-bashing. Objectively, MR looks as polarizing as the identity politics groups it hates.

fengpi · 2018-06-01T09:18:43+00:00

If you think Japan is lousy for women, you shouldn't go visit a poor country. That'll shock the hell out of you.

tenchineuro · 2018-06-01T13:00:35+00:00

I'm sorry, but it's hard to say what you mean because your writing is not clear. Did you proofread?

Of course men should still fight for their rights. We should let women take over.

These sentences seem to contradict each other, but the women have already taken over in the West.

Or make everything a gender problem. Because this is exactly what the feminists do right now.

So what kind of problem do you claim we have?

At the moment we men need the normal rational women that reject feminists itself.

The normal rational women are scheduled to arrive 10 years after the herd of albino unicorns.

There are a very few women who reject feminism (as opposed to just not calling themselves feminist), but I'm guessing MRAs outnumber them 10 to 1.

We.have to get rid if the third wave feminist radicals.

They alone are only a small part of the problem. And I suggest that there is no such thing as a radical feminist, all feminists support the same movement and the same ideology, the distinction is false.

But some people simply go to far. Which makes them no better that a feminist.

Wow, this is a feminist argument.

Do you call yourself a feminist?

That's why this is titled don't become your own enemy.

I think that position is covered by feminism, the federal and state governments, divorce courts, schools, colleges and universities, and lately the military.

Because at the end that hurts the whole movement.

That's not it at all, men are not allowed to complain, men are supposed to 'man up', to 'take it like a man', that's why MRAs are considered a threat, they defy social requirements, and they defy feminism (and hence become a hate movement). It's not a matter of style at all, it does not matter how we object, the crime is that we are objecting.

hirayama_ronin · 2018-06-01T19:52:25+00:00

But I also see the theme that women are bad in general. Trust me you don't want to become that radical. Not all women are evil by default.

The thing is I lived a whole year in Tokyo. ... But the men there are so traditional they simply can't accept this. Young Japanese people are all single in Tokyo right now. No joke. You rarely see couples there. And no babies. Which is also a huge problem.

So men turned their back on women and women aren't interested in dating anymore. The government try fix it right now. But traditionalism don't go with feminism. It's just not compatible. So what brings us to my point now. The thing is I see the exact thing happen in the western society right now.

We.have to get rid if the third wave feminist radicals. But we also have radicals on the other side. People that use MGTOW as a toll to shame and exploit women comes in mind. I respect every men that is a real MGTOW. But some people simply go to far. Which makes them no better that a feminist. That's why this is titled don't become your own enemy. Do good things for Men and stand your ground. But don't turn into an asshole. Because at the end that hurts the whole movement.

I feel like this is a perfect time to draw my sword.

You say that /r/MGTOW is like what is taking place in Japan, and that this is bad. But MGTOW is just what feminists deserve. Feminists deserve blowback. MGTOW is part of that blowback. If feminists don't like the look of the storm on their horizon, maybe they should change their rhetoric.

Unfortunately, it appears that an entitled, smug feminism of the late 2010s isn't about to reign itself in. Feminism is only going to get worse, more entitled, more smug. We're not going to get less mansplaining and toxic masculinity, but more.

And so as feminism makes the male experience worse, expect forces like MGTOW to get stronger.

Crying about it accomplishes nothing. If you want to change things, talk to feminists.

As for me, I'm beyond talking to feminists. Feminism is a scum theory.

PowerToAnnihilate · 2018-06-02T00:25:34+00:00

But I also see the theme that women are bad in general. Trust me you don't want to become that radical. Not all women are evil by default.

Can you provide example posts of this?

And women =/= feminism... I don't like feminists but being a feminist is a choice, being female is not.

I can disagree with someone's choice in feminism just like if they chose (insert political party) instead of (other political party). Most women aren't feminists. We don't hate women. Most are married, or dating a wonderful woman (like me) or are gay... or are single. What unites us is wanting equal rights for men, for example stopping circumcision, which is my lifelong goal.

And before you say "why not FGM too" I do care about that. I suffered genital mutilation myself, I feel for female victims too. But right now, only men are subject legally to it. That is an example of a male problem and men's rights.. and the top 2 posts on this sub right now are about it.

Mencite · 2018-06-01T10:22:07+00:00

Before everyone is like "Oh a feminist in disguise". Check my profile you will see that I'm definitely not one.

We have a profile in reddit? How do I access your profile?

Stein_Hakase_92 · 2018-06-01T09:27:06+00:00

Maybe I have to make sure that this is PRO men's right. I think I made this clear. I simply don't encourage people to go full radical. This never worked out good in the past.

Lupinfujiko · 2018-06-01T11:40:48+00:00

But don't demonize every women out there. Or make everything a gender problem. Because this is exactly what the feminists do right now.

I think you just answered your own question.

Title	Don't become the enemy
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	55
Date	June 1, 2018 9:14 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8nqi6a/dont_become_the_enemy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/dont-become-the-enemy.1177605 https://theredarchive.com/post/1177605

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