I'm Pro Choice but...

grasshopa · 2019-12-12T13:59:51+00:00

You've got a whole lot of concepts wrapped up in a single label here. Let's try to pull them apart.

I'm not "pro choice" so much as "anti-government". Pro-life presumes that the government knows best in an instance where the science is far from settled. So my natural default state is to want the rights retained by the individual and not the government. Mind you, I find abortion detestable and would never choose that option personally, BUT I support individual rights over that of the government.

Does sex == implicit consent to procreate? In a world where abortion exists, I would say no. However, here we have an inequality; for women it's no, but for men is yes. I would see this rectified; men would have the same rights as women to opt out ( although not to opt in over mom's objections; a man wouldn't be able to force a woman to carry to term if she's otherwise opposed to the idea ).

DwightFrank · 2019-12-12T13:30:29+00:00

To have unprotected sex is to invite the possibility of conceiving. I don't consent to a lot of things that are inevitable...but they just happen anyhow.

DIES-_-IRAE · 2019-12-12T20:25:38+00:00

Try some of these some time...

"Consent to sex is NOT consent to reproduce. Women really need to understand this."

"Your body, your choice? Your problem, not mine."

"Why can't I get an abortion-on-paper? I just want the same rights women do; not be able to be forced to raise a child."

...and see how mad they get.

EvilLothar · 2019-12-12T14:07:33+00:00

Women should be forced to bear the consequences of their choices. If you have unprotected sex, and don't use the multiple forms of birth control.... you are consenting to having a baby. That's what men are being forced to bear.. so until men have the option to walk away from any child they helped to created, women should be forced to do the same.

elebrin · 2019-12-13T01:51:10+00:00

I am "pro-choice" for a few reasons:

A woman who got pregnant irresponsibly is probably going to be an irresponsible parent. Abortion gives them an easy out, especially if pregnancy and children isn't something they want. Abortion isn't really "easy" but it's easier than the alternative.
Some babies have extreme deformities that can be detected in utero and shouldn't be brought to term.
I don't really like that abortion has become a political wedge.

I don't consider myself either for or against abortions. I think you gotta do what you gotta do sometimes, life is hard, and even if it's immoral, sometimes survival comes first.

I do think that couples that end up accidentally pregnant have failed to plan, communicate, and be responsible in a big way. Talk with your partner about what birth control will be used, ensure that you always are using multiple forms, and follow through. Adult relationships require a lot of discussion, planning, organizing, and following through in general. Sex and children are just one place. If you can't have such a discussion, then I would say that the relationship isn't in a place where you should be having sex at all. It takes a lot of time building trust first. For me, it took years before I was willing.

vovodiva · 2019-12-12T14:45:57+00:00

Women don't live in the real world where consequences exist.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2019-12-12T14:26:34+00:00

If you don't want to be a parent never have sex. Consent to sex is consent to forced parenthood. This applies even if the sex isn't consensual: just be a grown up and pay your rapist child support and stop being a selfish deadbeat.

Sorry, wait, that only applies to men who want to have sex and not be parents.

For women this would be a crime against humanity.

Lethn · 2019-12-12T15:26:33+00:00

Feminists have absolutely gone off the deep end with the abortion debate and I'm pro-choice as well but they have gone really extreme with their views to the point I'm defending the pro-life side because they attack people with pro-life views.

RT-AC66U · 2019-12-12T13:58:56+00:00

If there was a non hormonal male birth control pill the pregnancy rate, unplanned will drop.

lostapwbm · 2019-12-12T16:21:26+00:00

I came across a thread where the OP said "The foetus is violating my body." And "When I consent to unprotected sex, I do not consent to a foetus to grow inside my body."

I'll take 'biology' for $400, Alex.

What are your thoughts on this?

Has any Feminist ever troubled their little minds to explain exactly WHEN and WHY legal personhood and its protections attaches to the 'clump of cells'?

Because the Supreme Court said, in the holiest of holy documents, Roe v. Wade, that it's 20 weeks.

Does a doctor have a right to not use their body and skills to carry out a woman's whims?

The Supreme Court answered this question in the affirmative.

2019-12-12T17:22:29+00:00

https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/04/20/in-the-market-for-fetal-body-parts-a-babys-brain-sells-for-3340/

Cripplenippleripple · 2019-12-13T01:27:47+00:00

I'm pro-choice because I don't want to be a dad until I'm married and my life is settled. I personally believe that if we were to make an abortion law in the U.S. stating there is a long time period to abort, child support should play a role. If the man is unaware of the pregnancy, expresses disinterest in it, expresses interest in an abortion, or overall shows before the child is born, that he doesn't want it, then he should be in no obligation to pay child support, since it is the woman that chose to keep it, it is her responsibility.

SporkTornado · 2019-12-13T05:31:34+00:00

Reminds me of an old survey on abortion.

5% of respondents think abortion should be banned
15% of respondents think abortion should be legal, with zero restrictions of late term abortion.
80% of respondents think abortion should be legal, with some restrictions of late term abortion.

tiniestvioilin · 2019-12-13T12:32:55+00:00

I think abortion is wrong in most circumstances except for say it was child who was pregnant or someone got raped the baby would kill the mother during birth or the child won't survive.

Other than that its just murder you had sex you knew the risk so you shouldn't be able to kill someone because of it.

14b755fe39 · 2019-12-13T18:15:28+00:00

Humans use sex as means of social interaction, rarely for making babies. Having sex doesn't mean they desire a cluster of cells multiplying viciously inside them now. It doesn't mean they are ready mentally, financially and physically ready to carry a fetus for 9 months.

Womans access to abortion is already hindered with retarded bills trying put extra procedures that just to force women who already have limited access to health care and limited resources to birth a child.

Yes the fetus is violating her body.

When some one fails to put on a seat belt and consequentially a piece of the windshield gets stuck in their skull we don't say "You were driving in an unsafe manner therefore we will not remove this piece of glass lodged in your brain, take responsibility for your actions." It's unfortunate that they were driving in an unprotected manner but we will fix what we can from this moment. (Keep in mind a cluster of cells doesn't have a soul or sentience).

Some folks say that the fetus has the potential to be a full grown human. This is irrelevent, we take decisions and actions on what the current situtation now, not next week not nrxt year, and not based on the million different potential outcomes we can imagine.

JackFisherBooks · 2019-12-13T19:29:00+00:00

I don't think so. That post was essentially saying "When I consent to ride in a car, I don't consent to it crashing into a tree." And I think that logic is sound. Sex is not just for procreation. That's a fact of nature, especially among primates and other social species, which humans are. When it comes to matters of choice, intent matters. That's just my thoughts. I expect plenty to disagree with it.

_Mens_Rights_Matter_ · 2019-12-12T16:34:05+00:00

Well that line of thinking is retarded

paperclip_powderpuff · 2019-12-12T20:46:30+00:00

That's kinda crazy

Kinda like well, I want to own a car but I didn't agree to monthly payments, wtf

RubixCubeDonut · 2019-12-13T04:43:05+00:00

"The foetus is violating my body." And "When I consent to unprotected sex, I do not consent to a foetus to grow inside my body."

This is like saying the potato chips violated her body because she consented to eating them but not for the calories to be absorbed.

2019-12-13T07:38:39+00:00

"I consented to getting pregnant, but I didn't consent to having a boy"

"I consented to giving birth, but I didn't consent to keeping him alive"

"I consented to parenting, but I didn't consent to spending money and time taking care of him"

"Consent" is not an argument. It can be twisted any way you want. If you're pro-choice, you need to rest it on an argument besides consent.

menstruatrix · 2019-12-12T16:32:16+00:00

the OP said "The foetus is violating my body." And "When I consent to unprotected sex, I do not consent to a foetus to grow inside my body."
Is this Pro choice gone too far?

No, that's pro-choice. Somewhere along the last 40-50 years the position that there's some point during pregnancy before which the potential 'rights of a fetus' supersedes the rights of a person shifted from being "pro-life" to being considered "pro-choice".

I don't believe abortion is right but I also believe that every woman has a right to abort in certain circumstances.

i.e., "I'm Pro Choice but..." I'm actually "pro-life".

What are your thoughts on this?

"Consent to one thing is not consent to other things" is a pretty good guiding principle that shows up elsewhere; consent to a date is not consent to a kiss is not consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy is not consent to parenthood, etc.

"Bodily autonomy" is a poor foundational argument, since there are so many other areas of law where violation of bodily autonomy is considered justified for reasons far less compelling than the ones evoked by the abortion debate. For instance: "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights disregards the violation of men's bodily autonomy in forcing a man to use his body to sell his life&labor for 18+ years to support an unwanted child, yet expects us to hold the lesser violation of women's bodily autonomy as sufficient to not abide by the general legal status quo holding that it's justifiable to force a person into nonconsensual parenthood.

Title	I'm Pro Choice but...
Author	Lilylolo88
Upvotes	27
Comments	56
Date	December 12, 2019 1:20 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/e9ngri/im_pro_choice_but/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-pro-choice-but.1202145 https://theredarchive.com/post/1202145

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