Is any form of algorithmic dating advice generally bad?

TypicalProfit8475 · 2024-01-26T00:11:24+00:00

The problem is in the analysis and the framing. Specifically it’s the framing of toxic traits and/or antisocial and/or unhelpful attachment styles in people as normal that’s looked down upon. A lot of the red pill advice encourages men to act like disconnected psychopaths and believes that all women all have attachment issues/personality disorders.

xvszero · 2024-01-26T00:48:05+00:00

Because there is a human being on the other side, one that in ideal case you can create a mutually empathetic relationship where you truly care about each other based on something specific between the two of you. Algorithms aren't so great at that uniqueness.

I know some jobs CLAIM to be like family but I've never actually seen that in real life. For me employment is always a kind of loose agreement with no real intimacy.

With that said I think dating advice is fine as long as you remember that ultimately you're looking to connect with someone not just punch in some variables and hope for a specific outcome.

hapylittlepupppy · 2024-01-26T00:49:17+00:00

Using steps to gain a relationship is disingenuous and treats the other person like someone to win rather than a human being. Relationships should be built on connection and genuine affection but you can't do that when you're following a list of things you "need" to do. You also have to take in the wider context of what "getting what you want" means, more often than not this kind of dating advice goes hand in hand with manipulating someone inexperienced or too trusting to see they're not dealing with the true person but someone following a list of approved behaviors.

With some of the more toxic advice like push/pull, "text them this number of times" it's downright nasty because not only does it treat the person like a game but it takes advantage of someone's desire for affection. Most of these "rules" are so super ridged, that give no room for the other person to have wants and needs, e.g. steps about gaining sex within a certain number of dates.

bluemagex2517 · 2024-01-26T02:48:02+00:00

I have the idea that it isn't necessarily the specific advice that is hated, but the idea of the existance of a step by step procedure or 'if/else' logic for getting girls. But why is this morally different from advice on doing job interviews or advertising?

Because a job isn't a human being. A company isn't a human being. You're dealing with people who hold positions at that company, but you're trying to get a job at the company they work at and not directly from them. A cold impersonal algorithmic approach makes sense when dealing with a company, which is a cold impersonal entity. The company has hiring rules, algorithmic in nature.

The woman you're trying to talk to, trying to flirt with or court, is just a human being. She's not a representative of anything but herself. She deserves a level of respect that the company doesn't. She may have rules she self imposes for dating, but they aren't algorithmic generally. They're just human preferences.

Why is the assertion that certain behaviours or actions are statistically more likely to get you the result you want inherently dehumanizing?

This sort of ignores the crux of the position it's criticizing. Part of the criticism of these sorts of methods is that they don't actually work for finding a real connection with a partner. It's not just that you are dehumanizing the person, "but the results will be beneficial anyway." It's that the results don't actually bear the fruit that they say the method will lead to.

A lot of the time, almost all the time, these scripts only work in comparison to a guy who is totally socially clueless. If a guy is totally socially clueless, he won't get anywhere with the woman he's interested in. But, if he tries one of these algorithmic dating systems, he'll get at least somewhere. Thus, he concludes that it must work.

However, it won't actually get very far compared to some regular socialization. The guy who does the PUA algorithmic approach might get one phone number out of talking to fifty women, and he might get a date out of ten numbers, and he might have sex with one in ten of those dates. So after using the algorithmic approach on 5,000 women, yeah he has sex. But, is this actually a good statistical result?

The guy who learns to actually talk to women, to actually engage on a human level, to actually flirt and banter, or to actually make interesting conversation, is not only going to do a lot better than 1 in 5,000 or whatever the dude using the algorithmic method achieves. He'll actually have a chance to make a connection that leads to a lasting healthy relationship.

How many people do you know that wound up in a lasting healthy relationship from these algorithmic approaches? I'm 36, almost 37. I don't know any. I do have 12+ guy friends who are married or in committed long term relationships. All of them, despite most being awkward nerdy guys, a few even with hardcore social anxiety, eventually got better at regular old socializing, searched for a long while, and eventually found love.

And, if you're not interested in anything other than sex? We'll I'd argue that not only is the algorithmic method less effective than getting better at socializing, it's far more likely to make you feel empty. Even people who are just hooking up want to be treated with respect, to be treated as human beings. Meeting them on a human level, even when you're both primarily looking to hook-up, will be much more fulfilling.

This I know from experience. In my early 20's I was the sort of dude who would say anything or act in any way to get into women's pants, purely out of a deep lack of self worth and insecurity that I thought sex would cure. Eventually I changed to someone who was open and honest about what I wanted and didn't lie or mislead to get it. I only has sex with women i clicked with, who wanted the exact same thing. That was a way better time, both emotionally (it was far more fun) and morally (I didn't feel like I was lying and using anyone anymore).

Using algorithmic dating strategies is similar. Those aren't you're actual reactions, thoughts, or reactions. They're a set of lies you were given to pretend like they're yours because they're supposed to produce a particular response. Ultimately, if you have any moral compass at all, it's going to make you feel icky even if you succeed. It's going to make you feel empty because you won't make an actual human connection.

luridlurker · 2024-01-26T00:02:44+00:00

I have the idea that it isn't necessarily the specific advice that is hated, but the idea of the existance of a step by step procedure or 'if/else' logic for getting girls.

Is the advice the same as you would give girls (to date boys)?

TypicalProfit8475 · 2024-01-26T00:11:42+00:00

The problem is in the analysis and the framing. Specifically it’s the framing of toxic traits and/or antisocial and/or unhelpful attachment styles in people as normal that’s looked down upon. A lot of the red pill advice encourages men to act like disconnected psychopaths and believes that all women all have attachment issues/personality disorders.

oldcousingreg · 2024-01-26T02:26:20+00:00

People don’t run on algorithms. True connections aren’t made through AI or SEO software. You might find something promising on paper but the reality might reflect something different.

TypicalProfit8475 · 2024-01-26T00:11:28+00:00

The problem is in the analysis and the framing. Specifically it’s the framing of toxic traits and/or antisocial and/or unhelpful attachment styles in people as normal that’s looked down upon. A lot of the red pill advice encourages men to act like disconnected psychopaths and believes that all women all have attachment issues/personality disorders.

grown_folks_talkin · 2024-01-26T07:00:34+00:00

It’s not but on this and other Reddit places it’s frowned upon. I see why people who take the anti-advice seriously often end up in dark places. Super gaslighty.

Unnecessary-Training · 2024-01-27T12:59:33+00:00

The if/else thing is bad if you believe it will guarantee you a relationship. It is good if you regard it as self-improvement advice, i. e. something that increases your probability of success.

tenebrasocculta · 2024-01-28T06:34:42+00:00

I have the idea that it isn't necessarily the specific advice that is hated, but the idea of the existance of a step by step procedure or 'if/else' logic for getting girls. But why is this morally different from advice on doing job interviews or advertising?

This is actually a great analogy, though not for the reasons you think. What makes it effective is that, much like in dating, there is no surefire step-by-step approach to interviewing for a job that will net you the result you want. You can increase your odds by rehearsing your answers ahead of time, put your best foot forward by making sure you're well-groomed, show interest by asking thoughtful questions, and make a good impression by highlighting your past successes and playing up your strengths, and you can still be cut in the final round because the interviewer decides someone else is better suited to the position. And you can't actually control their perspectives, you can only hope to influence them.

The same applies to dating. By trying to systematize the process into "First A, then B, then C, then profit!" you're failing to factor in that your date has an entire inner life that will inform their attraction and sense of compatibility, and where these formulaic approaches fall short is in their refusal to acknowledge that trying to override someone else's lack of interest is creepy and controlling. If someone you're interested in isn't reciprocating the way you want them to, the correct response isn't to double down on your efforts to pick them up, it's to back off. That's why people take exception to those kinds of methods: because they're all about privileging what you want ahead of thinking about what the other person wants.

DaneCountyAlmanac · 2024-01-29T19:38:28+00:00

Ideally, date five or more people before getting married.

If any of them appear to be far better than you're ever going to meet for the rest of your life, stick with 'em. (Consult a qualified mathematician for further information on gaussian distributions.) Otherwise, don't deprioritize your own career or life for the sake of the relationship. This is usually called "being less than 25 years old."

There you go. There's your algorithm.

worshipandtribute95 · 2024-01-31T03:20:57+00:00

Well, for starters, I don't think it's toxic for other people, so much as it is for you, the person consuming the content. These dating tips aren't going to work, they're going to create unrealistic expectations that will lead to you being let down, and ultimately will leave you feeling worse than before. These people get labeled as grifters for a reason, they aren't there to teach you how to pull women, they're there to pull you in and give them views.

Dating isn't something that can be broken down into a step by step guide. It happens naturally, is very unpredictable, and there is no "one size fits all" approach that will net you any girl you want. It just doesn't work like that.

Title	Is any form of algorithmic dating advice generally bad?
Author	Dirkdeking
Upvotes	2
Comments	15
Date	January 25, 2024 11:00 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/19fmfkw/is_any_form_of_algorithmic_dating_advice/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/is-any-form-of-algorithmic-dating-advice-generally.1243792 https://theredarchive.com/post/1243792

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