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"Is there systematic wage discrimination against women?" Christina Hoff Sommers, The Factual Feminist

ARenaissance-Man

July 14, 2014

42 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	"Is there systematic wage discrimination against women?" Christina Hoff Sommers, The Factual Feminist
Author	ARenaissance-Man
Upvotes	42
Comments	41
Date	July 14, 2014 2:02 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2ao0fg/is-there-systematic-wage-discrimination-against-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-there-systematic-wage-discrimination-against.1619246 https://theredarchive.com/post/1619246

Comments

[–]Poperiarchy2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]callmejohndoe-11 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]callmejohndoe-4 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Bynnar2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No one says women don't get discriminated against in the work place, all demographics do. It's stupid to imply otherwise, people hate people for nonsensical reasons all the fucking time. The fact is that there is no systematic discrimination of women.

Reality check for those who don't understand laws, it's illegal to discriminate against people based on race, religion, sex, or national origin. If anyone is trying to convince you otherwise, they are flat out lying.

The fact is that the "wage gap" exists because of a overall average of income. If you can control for outside factors, like any proper statistician or scientist would do, the wage gap evaporates. It's as simple as that.

So to clarify, this statement, "A women earns less than man doing the same job," is false; this statement, "The average income for a woman is less than a man," is accurate.

Now feel free to address that issue in any way you wish, but don't pretend this women are obviously systematically discriminated against in the work place. That is total bullshit. It's just as well founded to say that women aren't taught to be ambitious enough to penetrate the higher pay levels.

EDIT: Also, you don't need to be correct to be a feminist, just like you don't need to be correct to be an MRA. Since there is no formal feminist organization, you could say the only thing required would need to believe in women's rights and declare yourself a feminist. She clearly does, ergo feminist. Of course she could easily call herself an MRA, but since she chooses not to, it's not really correct to say she is one. Just like while I may be fine with being called an MRA while I'm talking on here, I prefer to identify as an egalitarian.

[–]callmejohndoe-3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Bynnar2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A women earns less than man doing the same job

Source?

That statement is 100% true.

The origin of the statistic that's used most often is a general average. Which as I said, is not good statistics. You're suppose to control for outside factors, a general average is not very accurate to make a point about the causes of this "wage gap". You can't just make claims about causes without proper analysis.

You are a sexist trying to maintain a male dominated society.

Bull-shit! I have nothing against women and I have nothing against feminism's stated goal of equality. I am pro-choice and have a huge disdain for TRP. I just want actual fucking equality.

I shouldn't have to sign up for selective service if women aren't forced to. Women should be allowed on the front line of combat just like men are. Women should be paying for meals on dates just like men do. There should be no default custody for women. Women should make up some of the generic enemies that the player massacres in violent video games. More video game developers should make games that appeal to or at least are female friendly. We shouldn't make jokes about how there are no women on the internet.

Do I need to make a fucking chart of the disadvantages and advantages of being a certain gender? Do you understand that it is possible to have pros and cons to be either gender? Do you understand that it is possible for both genders to be discriminated against in different ways?

Why? Because you are the one who actually needs the leg up. If both gender were equal you would be the one who would fall behind. Does that hurt you ego?

Ah, ye olde ad hominem. You don't even know me. You have just pulled this out of your ass. I have no desire to push others down if they are more skilled than me. That's a quality of human garbage.

Regardless, it's irrelevant. Who I am doesn't change the factual accuracy of what I say.

[–]callmejohndoe-4 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Regardless of what you intentions are you hurt the equality of women.

Because it is the male dominated society which put all these restraints on both genders.

So why would you follow right in their foot steps?

"want women to fight in the front lines"

Yeah men did that, plenty of women join the military and want to fight in the front lines

"Women should be paying for meals on dates just like men do"

They want too.

"women should make up some of the generic enemies that player massacres in violent video games"

1st off they do, 2nd off if they didnt you mean the games created by a male dominated industry? Surely we need to take action against the women for this!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jillian-berman/yes-by-any-way-you-measur_b_4725356.html

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/04/09/1839281/on-equal-pay-day-why-women-are-paid-less-than-men/

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/11/06/jobs-with-the-widest-pay-gaps-between-men-and-women/2/

Basically, what you're arguing for is total bullshit.

Debating that women earn the same as men, by whatever standard you measure it is jus flat out fucking wrong. A simple googling

"Do women earn less than men?" Will give you Article after Article after Article, of how women do in fact earn less than men.

It's flat out sexism, on par with climate denial, and you can not hide behind whatever rouge you wish to hide behind from me.

edit: also for the record just to make this clear, cause a lot of you bring up issues that aren't "rights. It's just a stupid gender role in which society attemps to place us. Feminism is to stop discrimination. Having to pay for your dates dinner isn't discrimination. It's just a gender role myth placed on us by society, it's the same as "be a man" it's not discrimination. It's just a gender myth.

[–][deleted]3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Bynnar1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Clearly you've demonstrated that I agree on many points with feminists.

However, I see you've decided their is no nuance to anything and have just made a straw man of me instead of responding to what I said. I never said that the average pay for a women isn't less than a man. You should read better:

So to clarify, this statement, "A women earns less than man doing the same job," is false; this statement, "The average income for a woman is less than a man," is accurate.

You instead decided that I said that both statements are false which isn't true. There is a big difference between the two. The former implies all other factors are equal, the latter is a general blanket statement that is statistically useless for determining cause.

The sources you've linked are hardly scientific, they're journalist articles. I mean, you'd might as well be trying to disprove climate change with Fox News articles. The difference between this an climate denial is that 97% of climate research papers and essentially every scientific organization out there, even the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, stands by the consensus yielded by the IPCC.

If you've got it, I want the peer reviewed scientific evidence. I want to see the mountain of economist papers that show without a shadow of a doubt, that this wage gap is due to systematic oppression.

Here's an analysis from the Department of Labor, which clearly states, "... the raw wage gap continues to be used in misleading ways to advance public policy agendas without fully explaining the reasons behind the gap."

I'm going to wrap this up by addressing these bits:

It's flat out sexism, on par with climate denial, and you can not hide behind whatever rouge you wish to hide behind from me.

What rouge I "hide behind" is irrelevant. You cannot simply choose to call me sexist instead of addressing criticism.

edit: also for the record just to make this clear, cause a lot of you bring up issues that aren't "rights. It's just a stupid gender role in which society attemps to place us. Feminism is to stop discrimination. Having to pay for your dates dinner isn't discrimination. It's just a gender role myth placed on us by society, it's the same as "be a man" it's not discrimination. It's just a gender myth.

I am well aware. You're reading skills need some work it would seem. I was pointing out that I am well in favor of the things that feminism supposedly champions. The removal of gender roles from society and other gendered nonsense.

While we're on the subject of rights, I might as well bring up something completely ignored by feminists. As I mentioned, I'm pro choice, yet most would say that a man can't force a women into an abortion and most would say that he can't prevent her from having an abortion. Yet at the same time, the man has no option. So if we're talking equal rights, in the absence of a male equivalent, the right to an abortion is only a right to couples or a right to no one. It certainly isn't a women's only right, or maybe we can just start calling it a women's privilege to an abortion. Personally, I'd would opt to establish a male equivalent, even if somewhat flawed, and leave a women's bodily autonomy and access to the option of abortion in their own hands, but it's some food for thought.

[–]ConfirmedCynic2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]callmejohndoe-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]I_FUCK_UP_RECIPES3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, CONSAD was commissioned by the Dept of Labor to do their study.

The conclusion was written by Chaeles E James Sr, Deputy Assistant Secretary of the DoL. In full this is what it says:

“In principle, more of the raw wage gap could be explained by including some additional variables within a single comprehensive analysis that considers all of the factors simultaneously; however, such an analysis is not feasible to conduct with available data bases. Factors, such as work experience and job tenure, require data that describe the behavior of individual workers over extended time periods. The longitudinal data bases that contain such information include too few workers, however, to support adequate analysis of factors like occupation and industry. Cross-sectional data bases that include enough workers to enable analysis of factors like occupation and industry do not collect data on individual workers over long enough periods to support adequate analysis of factors like work experience and job tenure.

Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers.”

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