Help debating the "male feminists?"

Chad_Nine · 2014-09-01T22:13:29+00:00

Never debate in PMs. You want it all in the open so people can see your arguments and the sources you cite.

You goal shouldn't be to convert or convince a feminist. Your goal should be to expose the debate to lurkers and observers.

DougDante · 2014-09-01T19:47:53+00:00

You're doing fine I guess.

Some of these you don't have to argue if you don't want.

Why can't games & legos be directed towards girls?" & also campaigns like ban bossy and he said "what is wrong with empowring girls?"

They can. Those are fine if people want to advocate for them, and most people support empowering girls.

There is plenty of information in the FAQ you can use. It's OK to agree that some feminists do good things. They do.

redgreenyellowblu · 2014-09-01T21:43:03+00:00

As others said, you won't change his mind so you won't win the argument if that's your goal. I don't think I'm giving you more "ammo" here, just a suggestion to tailor your words to your intended audience and goal.

If you want to continue with the debate or with another debate in the future, perhaps try practicing reframing issues in a way that others reading will identify with. They are the audience. The more your view sounds balanced or unbiased, and even somewhat sympathetic to some feminists, the more effective you will be.

Example: There's no need to argue whether feminists really hate men or not. Go "meta". It's enough to observe that feminists have gained that reputation (the article he insists on linking to demonstrates that) and that they are 100% responsible for that. It's not up to anybody else to fix the fact that they are viewed as man-bashing. It's not up to others to choose which feminists are the loudest in the room. Only feminists can resuscitate their floundering image. Just keep hammering on the fact that feminism has a whiny, self-righteous and angry image, and strike a sympathetic tone toward feminists as you do so, as if you'd like to help some way if you could.

(By the way, that's a great article he linked to and I plan on using it since it's written by a feminist foolish enough to write paragraphs complaining that feminism has started to smell like a rotten piece of meat in the garbage.)

Once settling on feminism's public perpection problem, you could question how a movement with such a negative reputation for man-hating men could possibly be an effective proponent for gender equality. The Women Against Feminism movement shows that more and more women are turned off by feminism. He will try to argue about why these women are wrong or stupid but there's no need to go there. Just ask, how has feminism's image tanked so badly to the point where women have stopped wanting to identify with it? How can feminism possibly repair the fact that more and more women aren't believing the dictionary definition anymore?

If he justifies the violent and anti-social actions of feminists, it's easy enough to say that they are only continuing to do more damage to their movement and that his justifications only worsen feminism's image problems caused by their echo chamber. No need to argue about how wrong the threatening ot violent actions are. Everyone else knows.

Eventually it will get to the specific complaints feminism has, because he will need to prove why we "need feminism". You can always go back to "well, increasingly people in the West are saying we don't need it" to keep him on defense. But more specifically, with the "what's wrong with empowering girls" argument: Nothing is wrong with it. But we have been empowering girls so much that there is a growing problem with female narcissism. You can google for those articles. In context of Ban Bossy, mention the narcissism and the online bullying epidemic among school-aged girls. How much more empowerment should they have? Is this psychologically healthy?

As far as making Lego's for girls, the answer is "nothing is wrong". Maybe he could start a kickstarter campaign and be a billionaire and put Legos out of business.

Sometimes it is helpful to feign ignorance of what the MRM even is. Feminists like to pigeonhole every opponent as an MRA because they know they can link to Huffpo or Cracked articles. You are automatically on the defensive. On the other hand, being upfront is good because it affords the opportunity to provide links to the important MRM websites and forums so the people following the debate get curious and click on links.

MyClaireAcc · 2014-09-01T19:01:54+00:00

Show him this

http://www.responsiblerecovery.org/PDF/PartnerAbuse.pdf

TheRabid · 2014-09-01T20:07:30+00:00

Do you want to change his mind? Unlikely. A lot of his identity and beliefs are based on the men vs women argument.

If you don't want to change his mind, then what is the end game? I tend to tell people to look closer at the statistics (like how the wage gap won't make sense from an economics standpoint) and end the conversation. If they continue, then I get the articles that show female abuse. If they can't acknowledge those articles or use the "no true Scotsman" fallacy; then I have no more respect for them as a person and am free to do whatever I want (ie walk away, no contact, etc).

jpflathead · 2014-09-01T20:26:24+00:00

Are you trying to

change his mind?
change the mind of people who read the two of you?

If the latter, you can just be reasonable, link and describe the facts and the rebuttal arguments and let the people who read the two of you decide.

I am sort of a shit in arguments, but I know how to link to people much more persuasive than I.

For more tips, you can spend some time seeing how atheists debate creationists. They encounter many of the same tactics.

OTOH, wtf? I've never seen facebook as a place to hold any sort of discussion about anything. I like the photos my relatives send of their kids, and the cat photos of my girlfriends, and that's what facebook is for.

raptorxking · 2014-09-01T23:24:21+00:00

If he's made you upset, he's already won. Don't give him the time of day.

Here's how you win: delete him and all his comments. Do something that improves your life like read a book or exercise.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2014-09-02T00:15:56+00:00

There's no point arguing with a male feminist. The feminist movement doesn't allow men to have their own opinions, they are just expected to repeat the dogma.

It's like talking to a fist, trying to convince it not to punch you.

2014-09-02T20:19:15+00:00

Ask them about Rotherham and why there is not a single 'feminist' to write about the issue.

NWOslave · 2014-09-01T21:51:36+00:00

It's impossible to debate any feminist since the starting and ending point of feminism is a lie. Every feminist statistic and talking point is a fraud. you cannot debate a feminist because they sincerely believe every lie ever told to them.

Black_caped_man · 2014-09-01T22:03:52+00:00

I'm not looking for more ammo for arguments, I just want to know how to deal with morons like him.

You don't, you show them your side and if they won't even consider it then you are arguing with a brick wall... it's not gonna let you through regardless of how good or true your arguments are.

You just don't dignify him with a response the next time he writes.

raptorxking · 2014-09-01T22:33:47+00:00

Why would you want to debate a feminist?

questionnmark · 2014-09-01T22:49:59+00:00

Arguing with someone who won't change their mind is like teaching a pig how to skate. All you'll do is waste your time and annoy the pig. The best way in my experience in arguing with feminists in open or semi open environments is to be reasonable and let them choke on their own BS.

Krolll · 2014-09-01T23:03:19+00:00

Always drop a (personal) question with any answer you give him, just to keep the initiative. E.g: when did you become a feminist? Read Saul Alinsky and throw what you learned back at him. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-93993

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2014-09-02T01:22:37+00:00

Debate don't argue. Arguing is pointless. In a debate you are trying to convince the audience.

To win a debate against a feminist is rather simple. Take away three words and they can't form any coherent sentences. Make your opening remarks about how "Feminism" "Patriarchy" and "Privilege" are words that mean everything and every thing and all things and nothing and that thing and puppy dogs and unicorns. Since "Feminism" covers everything from "sex positive" to Militant lesbian seperationists using the word conveys no meaning. The same with "Privilege" and "Patriarchy"

When you turn "Feminism fights The Patriarchy to end male Privilege" into "The adherents of the repeated meme are on a quest to slay they flying spaghetti monster to end supercalafragalisticexpalidocis" Feminists either reveal the bigotry of feminism or can't form actual sentences.

kizzan · 2014-09-01T20:18:47+00:00

According to the Catholic religion, priests molesting children is wrong. We all know how that ended.

anubis_god · 2014-09-02T00:06:28+00:00

Is this satire? You can continue to pretend that white, straight males are more oppressed than other groups but to discourage other men from supporting equal rights for BOTH sexes is just lunacy.

SpaceMCCloud · 2014-09-02T02:01:58+00:00

Maybe just admit you bit off more than you could swallow if you cant even have a discussion on facebook without moral support from 100000 heavily indoctrinated internet believer.

Title	Help debating the "male feminists?"
Author	raptorxking
Upvotes	9
Comments	58
Date	September 1, 2014 6:52 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2f6td9/help-debating-the-male-feminists/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/help-debating-the-male-feminists.1620638 https://theredarchive.com/post/1620638

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