Does anyone else think men would benefit from sexual courting education?

Budthestud_ · 2014-10-06T22:45:08+00:00

I think this is the single biggest factor in men checking out, more than the economy or feminism or porn. They just don’t know how to do it. The social skills for interacting with the opposite sex in a productive manner are just not being taught to the new generation – it’s been replaced with a lot of “just be yourself” bullshit – and the structures to funnel good dating prospects between the sexes don’t exist – they’ve been replaced with turbo-charged meat markets where sex is on the table from the word go.

Young men today have a tactical problem and a moral problem when it comes to meeting girls. They just flat-out don’t know how to do it, and they don’t know if they should want to.

The skills weren’t being trained when I was young for sure, and we’re seeing the fruits of it. I grew up in the era where the active, forward nature of male sexuality itself was criminalized from youth onward. This caused a great period of questioning for many young men who were not born with the charm that makes it OK to be a sexual man. The sexual marketplace is in the thick of a divergence, with attractive naturals getting the lion’s share of women’s attention from a very young age, and the rest of them falling further and further behind as the old expectations of mutual commitment are torn apart and the scene goes fully feral.

Regarding dating structures, earlier generations and societies had governors in place to prevent the sort of “sexual hoarding” we have seen in the last 20 years. This took the form of strictly- or mildly-enforced assortive mating, the natural distinctions of class structure, the overwhelming expectation that people would marry off fairly early and thus had to prioritize attracting a selecting a decent long-term mate, and the teaching of basic skills like dancing and dressing yourself properly. Even school dances and socials where taking a date was expected provided some teaching structure, forcing people to go through the motions of finding (or arranging) somebody who would say yes.

I don’t mean to make it sound like everything was great in the past. There were plenty of problems and people left out. But it certainly seems there was more structure, and so everyone had a much clearer idea what the process was and what their options were.

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/10/15/creep-noh/

Lesbian journalist Norah Vincent dressed up and lived as a man for 6 months for her book Self-Made Man. She tried dating, and got a horrible shock. She discovered that the heterosexual male initiator role is much harder than she ever imagined as a woman:

We don’t have to do the part where you cross the room and you go up to a stranger that you’ve never met in the middle of a room full of people and say the first words. And those first words are so hard to say without sounding like a cheeseball or sounding like a jerk

Cheeseball, jerk, or perhaps… creep?

... Guessing how to make sexual advances with women as a heterosexual male is not just about basic social skills; it also involves intermediate/advanced social skills. If initiating was a basic social skill that was easy to do without being a “creep,” Norah Vincent wouldn’t have felt like a”cheeseball” or “jerk” approaching women as “Ned.” Vincent probably has at least average social skills. She is a woman and probably has a pretty good idea of what creeps them out. Yet she still had a tough time.

Feminists need to stop acting like they are qualified to expound on the level of social skills that are necessary for heterosexual men to initiate with women effectively in ways which avoid risking too much discomfort. Sorry feminists, but we guys know what it takes better than you do. If you’ve got an actual argument, let’s hear it, but don’t just flatly deny my experience. Like Vincent discovered, initiating in the male role is harder than you think.

By trivializing the difficulty of the male initiator role without knowing what they are talking about, feminists merely discourage men from doing the work to figure it out.

IveTriedEveryDrug · 2014-10-06T22:34:48+00:00

For literally millions of years all I guy had to do was boop a girl on the head and take her back to his cave

Really? Then why did females develop strong mate selection patterns if they had no say? Evolution granted both genders with an assortment of criteria to judge a potential partner. Your view of human evolution is disgustingly perverted.

ParentheticalClaws · 2014-10-07T01:16:30+00:00

Why only men? I think both genders could benefit from learning more about dating--not in the sense of teaching seduction techniques, but in the sense of talking about how to form an initial connection, how to understand someone else's perspective on sex, etc. Clearly both genders are subject to some pretty harmful media presentations of what courtship is like. Something to counteract that would be great. Unfortunately, when I did get some education on courtship in high school, it wasn't very helpful and was mainly focused on how girls should fend off the horrifying advances of predatory men, rather than how to cultivate a healthy sexual relationship.

As to where to get information, absent such education, I'd suggest older friends or relatives who are in healthy relationships. Also, if you're a man, talking to female friends about their experience of dating would probably be helpful, and vice versa if you're a woman.

DesignRed · 2014-10-07T00:00:51+00:00

No. This is just a wordy way of saying teach men not to rape. Men don't have to jump through hoops to court women. If you want to teach young men something, then teach them how to be financially independent and own their own businesses by the time they hit their 40s. You get one life, don't waste it obsessing over idiotic dreams of love and contentment through supplicating to women.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2014-10-06T22:14:08+00:00

You want to "teach men not to rape"?

MRSPArchiver · 2014-10-06T21:47:23+00:00

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2014-10-07T02:50:01+00:00

No no no no this is a horrible idea. Who'll teach it? You'll get feminists who do it, and you'll hate it. You'll get PUAs who do it, you'll hate it. Let's get /r/theredpill to do it! Or /r/punchingmorpheus. The reason why they taught you scientific facts were because they were indisputable, and all the pick up strategies are.

subzero_600 · 2014-10-07T04:19:13+00:00

I'm currently in a form of therapy where the topic has swung around to teaching me the right way to talk to people. While I am good a faking it, I have little idea in how to properly talk to strangers and interact with them on a positive way. So far it is working and I have seen a improvement in my interactions.

I see the sort of lessons on courtship heading in a similar way. Learning how to talk to the opposite sex and the whole courtship dance. Not in a pick up artist fashion but in a way that a lot of kids these says don't know how to do, from both sexes. There doesn't seem to be the drive during the early teens to fumble your way though it and come out at the end of high school like their was a couple of generations ago.

BuddhaB · 2014-10-07T05:05:05+00:00

NO, if there was any type of courting education it would have to be taught to both sides.

2014-10-07T05:38:05+00:00

we used to be a society where sex before marriage was rare, people married young, and families were concerned about and involved in finding their children a good match.

now parents aren't involved in their kids' lives, and are horrible role models for relationships, getting divorced and remarried 2 or 3 times largely on a whim. there is plenty of casual sex before marriage and men are left on their own. feminists have defined rape and sexual assault much broader than in the past, and yes men are the initiators of sex traditionally, so it can be easy to say a man is an assaulter because he didn't rise to whatever the high standard of consent is the rule among feminists these days that they haven't informed men about yet. 50 years ago sex was probably out of the question until you got married, so this wasn't an issue, and people were getting married at 18 all the time. after marriage a wife probably wasn't running to the dean's office the next day crying because her husband touched her boob during a makeout session without asking for permission first.

so when you say men need to be educated on dating, i think the bigger issue is our society has changed drastically, and the rules are taking their sweet time catching up.

mikesteane · 2014-10-07T06:25:53+00:00

A woman dresses to appeal. A man talks to her. Who is the primary initiator? Is there any evidence for the idea of cavemen hitting women over the head as a normal sexual practice. I think it is an absurd fairy tale.

rgeek · 2014-10-07T06:36:34+00:00

Answer this first. What do women want?

Ultramegasaurus · 2014-10-07T07:45:49+00:00

Yes, that's what we need, a class to teach men on how to properly court and pamper women. How about we stop acting like retarded animals with the male doing everything to attract women?

RegentsEnd · 2014-10-07T09:18:50+00:00

I'm not saying men are monsters I'm just saying men are monsters.

guywithaccount · 2014-10-07T16:36:40+00:00

I'm gonna say no.

It's impossible to teach men how to court women in a way that's acceptable to society when society itself can't agree on how women should be courted. When men are asked to take the initiative and do most of the work of starting and building relationships with women, but those same men are constantly scrutinized, criticized and criminalized for making the effort, there is no useful advice you can give them except to get out of the game.

Title	Does anyone else think men would benefit from sexual courting education?
Author	Budthestud_
Upvotes	3
Comments	20
Date	October 6, 2014 9:47 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2ihp02/does-anyone-else-think-men-would-benefit-from-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/does-anyone-else-think-men-would-benefit-from.1621728 https://theredarchive.com/post/1621728

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