Do you hate male feminists?

[–][deleted] 9 points9 points9 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]RPthrowaway1230 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blake553 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blake553 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I only read the title... What you've written looks like a troll post. Do you think anyone here cares enough to find male feminists and debate them (or attack them like you implied? There isn't much talk here of male feminists leading to the collapse of society. People here generally think it's just a pretty meek outlook on life, and probably tied to some inferiority complex or lack of masculine role models.

I don't really hate anyone, people have their own interpretations of the world and act on it.

I mention Elliot Rodger because he looked down upon more 'masculine' men and thought that made him superior. His supplicating, and doing things to try and impress women left him feeling defeated and bitter. He was against PUA stuff, he thought it was manipulative and low-brow. I think that motive of trying to impress women is something that a lot of male feminists share. Trying to identify more with women than with men, in the hope of gaining their acceptance.

Yeah, no one says they support feminism "to get laid". Tell me though, why do you support it? Women have higher college graduation rates, longer life expectancy, lower jail-time for identical crimes, advantages in child-custody, more reproductive rights, less than 10% of workplace deaths, more social support (glass floor). Seems like in terms of legislature and social outcomes, men are actually trailing.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Blake552 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]boydeer-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]boydeer0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]boydeer-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]through_a_ways0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]through_a_ways-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RPthrowaway123-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RPthrowaway123-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

In what ways hasn’t it gone far enough? I can think of one right women generally don’t have that men do (the ban on women’s chests) This is a problem, but men have no right to bodily autonomy with regard to genital mutilation, no right to choose if they’re a parent, are disproportionately locked away for the same crimes- where their rape in prison is par for the course. And you thought Robin Thicke’s mediocre pop was “rape culture”. Hitting a man is no big deal- in fact; most laws dealing with domestic violence minimise or erase male victims of it. Women are even more protected from abuse than children- who they disproportionately abuse. If a woman forces a man to have sex it isn’t legally recognised as rape, etc. In the US men are required to sign up for selective service to earn their right to vote.

But I can hear your response already “it’s the patriarchy!” Seeing as how feminists have routinely fought against extending these rights to men, is feminism part of patriarchy? As someone who was raised in a bug nutty religious household- the idea of a poorly defined all-present invisible entity, who wants me to feel bad for my normal human urges isn’t at all unfamiliar. The only difference is Christianity told me my toys were evil because they were satanic. You guys tell little girls their toys are evil because they are pink.

You complain about the gender wage gap- manipulated statistics which do not take into account things like childbirth, different interests, and the fact that, thanks to feminist maternity laws, hiring women is more of a liability. Almost every “feminist” who I’ve met who has complained about the wage gap has, once asked how she would like to live in a world where there wasn’t one (women doing the same dangerous jobs, women only being the stay at home parent half the time, dating someone who doesn’t make as much money as you) they never seem to be too keen on the idea itself.

If the wage gap were as prevalent as people say it is, and you can pay a woman who will do just the same job just as well 70% as much- why don’t companies just hire women and put the competition right out of business?

Feminism seems to be of the opinion that women are broken men- and are only this way because of patriarchy. Some extreme feminists even assert that women are only physically smaller than men because we feed them less. I can’t think of anything more misogynist than telling women to stop acting like women, and instead imitate all the worst behaviours of men.

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

There’s the Violence Against Women Act, which erases male victims of domestic abuse- or declares them rare enough to be practically non-existent. Erin Pizzey, who was a feminist who opened up the first battered women’s shelter, and had death threats and her pet murdered for the suggestion that they include men.

The various feminist articles which say that male circumcision is no big deal, and those against it are just whiny babies. Or the feminists who openly say that women can’t rape. I have eve been told, repeatedly, that as a man innocent of rape, I’m not quite as innocent as women innocent of rape.

There’s the on-going hostility toward MRA groups, and the insistence that men’s rights not be dealt with while women “have it worse”. Whenever we bring up that a problem effects men too/worse, we get a call of “what about the menz!”

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]joe_bruised_ego1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]RPthrowaway1230 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]RPthrowaway1231 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]boydeer3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]RPthrowaway1231 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]boydeer2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

the too far/not far enough thing is hard to talk about, because in what way do you mean? women who make the same choices as men get paid the same, by and large.

feminism has started to focus on sources of female discomfort, and there has never been a guarantee of comfort for men. in fact, society has historically been much more apt to provide comfort for women, even when equality was not a thing.

our concern with a lot of long-term relationships is that while women are taught to be suspicious of men, it's taboo to teach men to be suspicious of women. enough women are predatory in the realm of sexuality that men who go into marriage based on a trust of the woman run a fairly high chance of being taken for a ride.

furthermore, accepted relational truths serve the woman. in a marriage, the man has the contractual duties, and feminism has eroded all of the female contractual duties. if you have a good wife, then this isn't too much of a deal. but you're still entering into an unfair contract with someone whom society will support almost no matter what their behavior.

the red pill states that men are attracted to certain things, and women are attracted to certain things on an animalistic level without exception. feminism presents an 'ideal' world, which will never be true. it is possible to override that animalistic drive, which feminism encourages men to do. however, feminism forbids discussing the animalistic drive of women, which means that when you marry a woman, you are very much at the mercy of an unexamined biological function.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]boydeer0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean by enough women being "predatory in the realm of sexuality"?

women use sex dishonestly to get what they want.

And if the red pill states that men and women are attracted to certain things without exception, don't you see the problem with that?

men have certain biological drives that are consistent across all healthy young men. women have certain biological drives that are consistent across all healthy young women. there are mitigating factors in social conditioning, and the expression of these biological drives changes, but the biological drive is there in everyone.

do you disagree with this?

i mean, it's perfectly socially acceptable to tell a woman that a man just wants her for sex when he invites her over to his place, but it's taboo to tell a man that the woman who accepts the invitation is running some sort of game as well.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]boydeer0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

BTW, by an exception, I was referring to me being attracted to "dominant" women (something I'm assuming you think men shouldn't be naturally attracted to).

this is not what i'm talking about, so your exception is an exception to a claim i didn't make. a TRP observation is that most men want submissive women, but this isn't presented as a law.

Can you give an example of women using sex dishonestly to get what they want?

a woman using sexual suggestion to keep receiving attention from an oribiter is one example. i have even pointed it out to women and suggested they cut the poor fucker loose, but they continued their behavior and continued receiving attention for the false promise of sex.

flirting with a guy at a bar until he buys her a drink is another example, though to me at least it's in a venue where the guy can expect that sort of behavior.

another example is the common trope of sex stopping after marriage. once the contract is signed, then the woman can use sex as a tool to control the husband and have plausible deniability as to why she is doing it. not all women do this, but it's common enough that i would be surprised if you were not aware of it.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]boydeer0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

i am talking about the underlying biological drives we have. for example, everyone feels hunger; not everyone will steal food from their roommates if they're hungry at 4am. the former is a law which would could state as:

"all healthy humans experience hunger"

the latter is not a law. there are exceptions.

Yes, women use their sexual power to their benefit but if they can, why shouldn't they?

power itself is amoral. any ethical system you construct governing the use of power is going to eventually rely on certain opinions. the generally accepted belief in TRP isn't that women shouldn't use power to benefit themselves, it's that they do.

that being said, if a man had access to food and his wife was hungry, i think it would be immoral for him to withhold food as a means of negotiating something he wanted. withholding sex is not as urgent as withholding food, but it's still restricting a biological need for affection to negotiate power in what is supposedly a partnership. i think any woman who does this is pretty twisted.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]boydeer1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Don't you think that you "red pillers" underestimate the number of exceptions?

there are zero exceptions to the law that all healthy humans experience hunger.

Seems like more men are marrying "dominant" women nowadays (like Jay-Z) and it seems like eventually, it'll become the norm.

obviously, there is no way to accurately assess "power" or "dominance" in a relationship none of us know anything about, but jay-z's net worth is higher than beyonce's, and he built his empire on his own merits. he is an incredibly powerful man. when beyonce marries me, you might have a point.

That's happened to me but I didn't complain about how women "use sex dishonestly".

it's not a complaint, it's advice given to men so they can understand how to operate in the world. just like you might advise a young girl that a guy who is trying to get her to go to his house is just trying to have sex with her, we are advising other men on the realities of the world.

we are not saying the world should be a different way. we are saying that it is a certain way, and we are describing to the best of our ability what we observe.

[–][deleted]0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]boydeer1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I meant the exceptions for men being attracted to dominant women.

i think you can be pretty sure that most of these things follow a normal distribution, with about 2/3 being within what most people would consider "average". i doubt red pillers would argue with this.

what is "normal" might change, sure. i have opinions about things. you have opinions about things. if i had to bet, i would bet on my opinions being right.

(Beyonce's definitely a dominant woman).

in their relationship? how do you know? even so, this is an example of a relationship, not 2/3 or even 1/3 of the population. we don't know if their relationship is successful. we don't know if beyonce or jay-z fuck other people.

BTW, why do you think girls have to be told that a guy trying to get her to go to his house is trying to have sex with her? Don't you think she would already know that?

she would already know this because it's part of the cultural dialog. it's something "everybody knows" because it's been talked about enough. regardless, if you haven't been in the presence of a woman receiving advice about a guy only wanting her for sex, then i don't know how many people you've actually spent time with.

the reason we give advice to men here is that the advice seems to be needed. there is cultural mythology that women are good and pure, which is not good for culture. the idea here is to honestly discuss male and female behavior as best we can, and come up with functional advice as best we can.

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]boydeer-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (62 children) | Copy Link

I'm what you would consider the "enemy"

Sorry, that alone shows that you just don't get it. TRP isn't a movement like feminism, conservatism, Marxism, etc... There isn't some supposed end goal, or ploy for political gain. TRP is a methodology. It encompasses a myriad of subjects; ranging from self-improvement, to dropping off the grid, to relationship advice. It's a methodology to explain particular behavior and how to adapt to it to achieve particular goals (which are dependent on the individual) such as picking up women (for anything from a 1 night stand to a long-term relationship) or being happier in one's career, or how to best go MGTOW.

So, to answer your first point; No, you aren't TRP's enemy. Any beef I personally have with feminism is because of other reasons (political, ideological, philosophical, moral), which may or may not also be backed up by TRP, but TRP isn't inherently anti-feminist.

(I'm a male feminist and I support pretty much everything you guys are against).

I'm wondering if you really know what TRP is "for" and "against". (Protip: TRP is amoral and doesn't advocate any particular morality. It's only a methodology much like the quadratic equation or scientific method.)

Do you hate me for that?

I don't hate anyone for their beliefs, no matter how much I disagree with them. I hate people for the shit that matters, particularly their actions.

For example, if you saw me on the street, would you do anything to me?

If I saw you on the street, I probably wouldn't know it. But no, if I saw some random male feminist on the street and somehow knew he was one, I couldn't care less.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (61 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (60 children) | Copy Link

TRP isn't inherently anti-feminist? Do you at least admit that returnofkings.com is inherently anti-feminist?

Once again, this shows that you don't get it. Just because people are anti-feminist doesn't make the methodology/ideology anti-feminist. If that were the case, Valerie Solanas and Andrea Dworkin would represent feminism and make the entire movement anti-men. Of course, we can both agree that equivocations are bullshit.

These people may be anti-feminist, but that doesn't mean TRP is anti-feminist. That's like saying science is anti-geocentrism. Science doesn't give a shit one way or another, it's a methodology.

That's how I first learned about this "red pill" thing (they're definitely anti-feminist).

Your lack of understanding doesn't mean that we're all culpable for something you find distasteful.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (59 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (58 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (57 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

[–]noblepaladin 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

If you strip all politics out of feminism, what is left? TRP makes observations, such as most men seem to prefer younger women. Or men who are good looking, wealthy, have power/status have more success with women. Divorce rates are far higher with single parents or people who have divorced before. People with a large number of sexual partners are less likely to commit to a relationship. People don't disagree with these face, but people seem to be very angry that we are acting upon these correlations. For example, I may choose not to date single mothers under the rationale that it would decrease the probability of a divorce in the future.

Where TRP differs from feminism is that feminism is an ideal. Feminists often state beliefs like "Women should feel safe walking down the street". Okay, sure. It is a statement of an idea. In order for that idea to become a reality, it typically requires politics. For example, many feminists are pushing colleges to reduce standards necessary to expel men who are accused of sexual assault. Feminism is a movement that is highly intertwined with politics.

TRP on the other hand is not a movement. We do not recruit. The actual policy is to not talk about it outside of the forum and not brigade other forums with discussions and ideas talked about here. We have no agenda. Some individual members might, we have no control over what individuals do or think. But in general, TRP just observes. We list what we observe, and recognize that you can apply basic probability such as Bayes rule to make better decisions. A lot of people were upset when Moneyball strategies were brought into sports. We are bringing it into the dating game.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]niczar2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]niczar2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]niczar3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]boydeer2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]niczar2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]niczar1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]noblepaladin1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sure there are some men who like older women. Personally, I think it would be cool if I could be a stay at home dad and simply marry a good looking, rich woman and let her do all the work. But realistically, if I were to pursue that strategy, I would probably be single forever because the majority of women choose not to "date down". It doesn't mean that it never works, it is just sub-optimal. Since I am not born with the face of a male model and I am not a white male, I have to be realistic about how far my looks will carry me.

By working hard on both my body and my career, as well as other "alpha" traits, I can greatly increase the number of women that would consider me a suitable mate. Sure, I can try the blue pill strategy of not doing anything, hoping that a good looking dominant woman will choose me and I can be a stay at home dad. But that is like a lottery ticket because if it doesn't happen I would have nothing. From my point of view, if I want to have family and kids in the future, it makes sense to choose the strategy with the best odds, which is the red pill strategy.

It is similar to investors and gamblers/speculators. Investors make favorable bets where the odds are in their favor, whereas gamblers and speculators make bets that against their favor. A lot of gamblers and speculators win money. It is suboptimal, but it occasionally works. Most investors don't care about what the gamblers are doing. Occasionally you will have one investor make a rant about how idiotic gamblers are. It sounds like you read a blog or something where some guy who associates with TRP made a rant about submissive men. But the vast majority of people who practice TRP do not care what other people are doing. They only care about improving their own chances of winning in life.

[–][deleted]1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]gg_s1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted]2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link