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February 11, 2016
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heading check. Been doing well with redpill philosophy. Recently read A guide to the good life (stoicism) by William B Irvine. Working out continually every morning. Building a real estate empire (MAP).

So it's been 2 months dead bed for me. Last night I escalate by feeling her up in the kitchen, telling her she looks good, and kisses.

She asks me to come lay down with her and I do. She asks what I want to watch and I say I didn't come in here to watch TV. I start undressing her, kissing, etc. She gets completely naked and then begins covering her boobs... pulling away when I kiss, etc.

She says she's awkward.. I push through and continue kissing. She is now pulling away from kisses. Finally snaps and says this is too awkward and to get off. Literally I felt as if I was trying to have sex with a Lesbian.

I say no problem, I take my raging hard on and go to my office. She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

She goes into the living room and says she's not sleeping in our bedroom. I DGAF and go to bed. She comes in bed later that night.

Today she talks about how pissed she is at me. I laugh and DGAF. Later she starts talking about all the appointments/activities she needs me to support her at over the weekend. I let her know I don't know if I can make it due to work (Really, just don't want to go .. no pussy, no commitment).

I tell her she has no reason to be mad at me because she asked me to leave. She said don't have a pity party. I laugh and say "Sweetie, I've never had a problem finding women.". (She met me in college when I had 2 girlfriends at the same time, she knows this.) We currently go to this marriage counselor (started before I found the red pill) who said that she needs to be included in my business life more to make her feel happy. So anyway, I equated that happiness as commitment versus the sexual needs for a man. That if I don't have my needs met, there's no need of commitment.

This woman will have sex with me one way... that's it. No other way because "it hurts" or "you're weird". She won't let me finger her because of "her c section scar". Oral is out of the question. It's fucking ridiculous. I'm sure she was fucked silly by Chad in college.

She then stays firm that she feels awkward around me and has never felt awkward around anyone else. She says she has felt awkward for 4 years. Straight up tells me that I should just go have sex with other people, but tell her before I do so she can divorce me.

I realize I fucked up by talking to much at this point and just went into my office, luckily having work to do. She barges in later telling me the babysitter needs to know now about the appointments this weekend on Friday and Sunday. I said no I won't be going, there's no need for the sitter.

I realize this is totally fucked, not sure how to unfuck. Needless to say it's been months since I've had sex and it's getting ridiculous. I want to say either fuck me the way I want or get the fuck out. However, I have a young toddler, if it weren't for that I wouldn't even be here right now.

TL;DR: Tried to have sex with wife, she acted as if I was the most disgusting sloth on this earth trying to take advantage of her. I DGAF and leave. Next day talk to much, now fucked up situation to unfuck.


Post Information
Title Heading correction
Author RealEstateRockstar
Upvotes 6
Comments 40
Date 11 February 2016 04:25 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/207673
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/4571ne/heading_correction/
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Comments

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy

If anything reminded me of "Every Unhappy wife is a Rape Victim," it's this.

(Really, just don't want to go .. no pussy, no commitment).

Yeah, so, don't do this. When a woman says "maybe I'd be more enthusiastic about sex if you did the dishes once in awhile," the natural implication is that, well, she's declaring her sexuality is apparently subject to an exchange of goods and services. Like... a prostitute. She probably doesn't realize "suggesting choreplay" = "acting like a prostitute," but isn't it? If any guy wants to end a any "choreplay" argument for all time, doesn't take much more than to just point this out.

Because it's not about the dishes themselves. Maybe she sees your unwillingness to do the dishes as a lack of emotional empathy that frustrates her. Maybe she sees the dishes as representative of a dirty and disorganized home that causes her constant anxiety. Maybe she sees them as yet another example of her incompetent Captain unable to execute or delegate basic household tasks. You don't do the dishes, because It's Not About the Dishes, and that's probably a good thing, unless you have a wife that's really into giving blowjobs in return for shiny cutlery.

So I hope you realize, when you so stupidly and transparently make your attention based on her sexual behavior, you're just suggesting the same kind of distasteful transaction. There's no narrative that you're just gradually withdrawing from a sexless marriage, because that's what any man in a sexless marriage should do. It's just transparent that you're throwing a tantrum, a tantrum that implies your attention for her sexuality is a transaction and since she's not paying up, then you, the Attention Prostitute, are lacing up your streetwalker heels and going home. So, I mean, if you act like an Attention Prostitute, even if you're wife took you up on that transaction -- "no sex, no commitment, OK fine, let's have sex" -- you think you're going to have an enjoyable and enthusiastic sexual experience with your wife?

C'mon, buddy. It looks like you've done a lot of reading but I don't think you're putting it together. Just because we tell you, "you don't have to be complacent with a sexless marriage, you're entitled to have your needs and desires and shouldn't accept being attacked or shamed" -- this isn't the way you want your wife to get that message. You were so fucking clearly butthurt, and your best option was to at least Own That Butthurtness, and maybe say something like: "Look, when shit like last night happens, I just feel rejected, and that's not your problem, but I don't know what else to tell you, except I'm not very eager to spend time around someone who makes me feel rejected." Some other guys here will tell you that's too many words, and they're right in that those words wouldn't convince your wife to fuck you.

But it would establish the narrative, that a sexless marriage means being with someone who is implicitly, if not explicitly, rejecting you all the time, and that's pretty shitty, and maybe you'll eventually start doing things to feel less shitty. And that would be an authentic narrative, because that's actually how you feel, as opposed to puffing out your chest with some bullshit about "never having a problem finding women." Your wife is clearly so fucking repulsed by you that she'd like nothing but for you to do that, if that means never having to be naked to your mere touch ever again.

We currently go to this marriage counselor (started before I found the red pill) who said that she needs to be included in my business life more to make her feel happy.

OK, so, one of two things are happening with your marriage counselor. One is that he's worthless, because I fucking tell you just from your 700 word victim puke, it's not about your business life. Your wife is just feeling an enormous emotional and intimate disconnect, and she essentially feels like you're just two entities on distant and parallel paths, that only intersect every once in awhile to co-parent. And maybe she said something like, he's just so focused on work, and I appreciate that, but it's like we're in our own worlds and never connect, and instead of at least drilling down and earning the fucking extortionist rates he's charging you for his Sweater Vest Fund, he just seized on "include her more in your business!" as a solution.

So, that's one possibility. The other possibility is that he did drill down in the psyche of what's going on, and you just tuned him out and started paying attention when he gave a practical suggestion. In which case, well, I don't know what the fuck you're paying this guy if you don't actually listen to him. I get it, you're probably some left-brained, quantitatively-minded, half-autistic retard like most of the other guys that stumble into AskMRP, but c'mon.

I am not suggesting you start going all super blue pill beta on your wife. But if you're planning a narrative and would like that narrative to cross her path, you probably need to think about where she's at. And where's at, dude, is really fucking far and disconnected from you. You haven't given much context on how this happened, and whether it was always this way, so I can't give you more insight beyond that. Shot in the dark, things shut down sexually after you had a kid, and you were way too whiny and entitled about sex afterwards, and she resented you for that and subconsciously started distancing herself from you as your sexual initiations became more and more repulsive.

She asks me to come lay down with her and I do... I push through and continue kissing.

She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

You think, champ, events like that have anything to do with this?

She then stays firm that she feels awkward around me and has never felt awkward around anyone else. She says she has felt awkward for 4 years.

You know, if someone said that to me, and their pattern of behavior indicated they 100% believed it and didn't just say it as a cheap shot, then I might reflect on that for awhile, instead of just jumping to:

Needless to say it's been months since I've had sex and it's getting ridiculous. I want to say either fuck me the way I want or get the fuck out.

Ugh. I guess I'll just ground the dead horse into gelatin, and point out that any sexual responsiveness you would get from this ultimatum, at this point, would just emphasize that being married to you means she has to fuck a man she finds repulsive. This may not be a message you want to to drive especially hard.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy

Anyway, look, now that I've taken a huge steaming shit on your marriage and informed you that any progress you thoughts you were making in the past two months has mostly amounted to nil, I'll end this comment with some practical advice for you. Your left-brained Aspie synapses can start firing now.

  • Call the sitter, have her come Friday. Tell your wife your business plans changed, you're free that day now. Go watch her do whatever lame shit she has planned. Normally I'd advise not doing this, but your absence is just going to reinforce this massive emotional chasm between you two.
  • Tell your wife you're busy on Saturday, and thought you'd do [something fun with your kid] on Sunday. On Saturday, get out of the house for most of the day. You need a reset. Think about your MAP, your narrative, your frame. Imagine the kind of life you want, and where your marital life fits into that, and how you'd feel and act if you and your wife were both happy, for whatever definition of happy you want.
  • Go to your marriage counselor appointment. You will have an "epiphany." You will tell your wife and your counselor that your wife's rejections are hurtful. And you are angry that you're hurt, so you react with anger, but really, you're hurt. And you don't really expect anyone to do anything about this, you're responsible for your own emotions. But you realize you've been struggling because you're only acknowledging one emotion and not the other. You will act like this is a fucking amazing strike of insight. Your counselor and wife will act like this is interesting and maybe even insightful, but be a little confused on why this is such a dramatic revelation and why it's manifesting now. Just tell them to go with it.
  • Start being stoic and cheery. Put a hiatus on sex, because you don't have any choice, and any sex you get in the near future will be figurative rape, so, right. Since the only sex you can get now is Figurative Husband Rape Sex, let's just put that whole thing on ice for awhile.
  • Eventually that ice will thaw, but it won't be by her appearing in your office in some lingeire and begging you to let her put her mouth around your penis. It will probably be small, affectionate, intimate moments that will do nothing for your blue balls but are the necessary steps you have to across to established you're not just a whiny entitled shithead who throws tantrums whenever his wife doesn't let him use her vagina as a receptacle as his penis.
  • Your wife will ask "what's gotten into you." She doesn't trust the New You. Refer back to your marriage counselor. Say things like, "it's incredibly how our mentality can change when we're willing to be responsible for ourselves." This is pseudo-intellectual bullshit, but it will sound like authentic pseudo-intellectual bullshit, and this is important. Because your wife won't trust you, won't stop wondering if you're going to turn into the Whiny Entitled Sex Nag, unless she thinks you've "really" changed. And she'll probably trust this mental epiphany as the impetus for your authentic changes a lot more than the truth, which is "I read some shit on a subreddit."
  • Figure out a way to dial down your work and make some friends. Because I don't think you have many. Your life revolves around the aggressive pursuit of goals, which is all good until you realize you've left out any room for 'playing.' Everything in your life is probably either work, or resting from work (watching TV, fucking around on your phone, whatever). Budget some time in your life for some actual enjoyable active recreation, with and without your wife.

And lastly: accept you may fucked up things beyond repair, and if you haven't, "four years of awkwardness" is not something you can unwind overnight. It will take time. You can speed up some of that time by engaging in all the SMV enhancing activities we talk about here, and so you should make every effort to do that. But I've been here awhile, and your marriage and your wife's revulsion of you is quite possibly the mostly completely fucked and tragic thing I've ever read... that I also thought had a snowball's chance in hell to be salvaged. Unlike some other guys, where my first and last thought is pretty much just limited to, "yeah, no, just put out your trash fire of a marriage and call it a day." So realize, however bad you may feel about the shitty things I'm saying about you and your marriage and your decisions, I wouldn't have invested all this time writing to you if I thought there was zero chance it would make a difference.

Will it? Don't tell me, buddy. Show her.

[–]cj_aubreyRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

So I hope you realize, when you so stupidly and transparently make your attention based on her sexual behavior, you're just suggesting the same kind of distasteful transaction.

Thank you Mr. J10, I can't speak for OP but that is a 100% accurate assessment of how I've been fucking this up as well.

Shot in the dark, things shut down sexually after you had a kid, and you were way too whiny and entitled about sex afterwards, and she resented you for that and subconsciously started distancing herself from you as your sexual initiations became more and more repulsive.

Not sure about OP, but that's almost certainly the story on mine.

Anyway, look, now that I've taken a huge steaming shit on your marriage and informed you that any progress you thoughts you were making in the past two months has mostly amounted to nil

These things are necessary, better that continuing with BS.

I'll end this comment with some practical advice for you.

Awesome, thanks.

[–]FearDearg2015Mod / Red Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Bra fucking vo.

Slow clap...

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

"Look, when shit like last night happens, I just feel rejected, and that's not your problem, but I don't know what else to tell you, except I'm not very eager to spend time around someone who makes me feel rejected."

Just got off work, read your reply and am very thankful for your reply. I'm left brained, goal driven, nail on the head. Being right brained and talking about my emotions while painting pictures and drinking wine were never on the agenda for my life.

I need time to re-read this and comment. Thank you for putting so much into the reply, it will make a difference in my life and MAP.

Edit: So I've been thinking. I really see what you're saying where you don't begin trading attention for sex transparently. However, it's well known that many of the guys here "reward" their wives with attention after a night of sex. Isn't this the same thing except I stupidly talked about it rather than acta non verba?

Figure out a way to dial down your work and make some friends. Because I don't think you have many. Your life revolves around the aggressive pursuit of goals, which is all good until you realize you've left out any room for 'playing.' Everything in your life is probably either work, or resting from work (watching TV, fucking around on your phone, whatever). Budget some time in your life for some actual enjoyable active recreation, with and without your wife.

Again nail on the head. Life is very productive and I do need time to unwind with friends. Shit, I need good friends first.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good lord Jack. You should start a gofundme account and just take donations for your posts and advice. If every guy you have helped with detailed, spot on advice gave you a dollar I think you would have a couple hundred thousand of them by now. I personally owe you several hundred dollars by that standard but would probably have donated less than fifty because I'm a cheapskate.

[–]Trekneck3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy

I say no problem, I take my raging hard on and go to my office. She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

Sure... decline the thing you wanted in the first place. Perhaps that IDGAF/Got shit to do attitude you showed when she shot you down worked. Next time, she may not come after you and be impressed by the lack of butthurt.

"Sweetie, I've never had a problem finding women.". (She met me in college when I had 2 girlfriends at the same time, she knows this.)

I don't know how long ago college was for you, but you can pretty much assume this is not in her mind, just yours. Just like all those chores you did over the weekend, don't count for shit when she gets pissed about the kitchen you decided not to clean up today. Don't expect brownie points for past experiences, mindsets, behaviors, etc. You can bet she doesn't care who you used to be, because at this point, that dude is long gone.

This woman will have sex with me one way... that's it. No other way because "it hurts" or "you're weird". She won't let me finger her because of "her c section scar". Oral is out of the question. It's fucking ridiculous. I'm sure she was fucked silly by Chad in college.

And you can bet she'd let him fuck her any way he wanted today. I'm not sure where you are in your sidebar reading, but make your way to SGM at some point. If you want a freak, you're going to have to LEAD her there. Don't expect a passion filled, enthusiastic back room first night fuck after years of beta behavior. You're in a situation that you've let deteriorate to a point where your wife won't sleep with you for 2 months. Your goal right now is just to get laid, period. Once you've gotten yourself to a place where you're getting laid, and handling rejection with the right attitude, then you can start concerning yourself with what she will and won't do. You just don't have the tingles going right now to be able to expect anything. Get her, fuck her the way YOU want to fuck, and keep at it until things have gotten to a better spot.

Straight up tells me that I should just go have sex with other people, but tell her before I do so she can divorce me.

She's challenging you. She knows that you won't, and doesn't believe that you could even if you tried. This is the level your SMV is currently at.

Bottom line her is it started off strong, and then you reverted into butthurt. When she came into your office naked, asking you to come into the bedroom, you fucked up. You let your butthurt over getting turned down the first time (despite handling it well, I assume, from your statements) fuck you over and instead of getting laid by a wife who just MAY have been impressed by your lack of giving a fuck at getting turned down, you chose to "stand your ground" by not getting what you wanted in the first place.

Two questions... exactly what are you doing to "workout every morning" and where are you at in your sidebar? If you're morning workout is riding the bike for 30 minutes, it's time to start getting out of the house and lifting some heavy shit 3 or 4 days of the week. If you're through several of the books, it's time to take a look at them again and readjusted your MAP and establish your frame (from the sound of things, possibly for the first time).

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

She's challenging you. She knows that you won't, and doesn't believe that you could even if you tried. This is the level your SMV is currently at.

Fuck you for making me realize this. Damn so true.

  1. Read all of sidebar. NMMNG, MAP, SGM, Dale Carnegie multiple times, 16 command poon, Bluepill's youtube channel, random books on stoicism. My life before was "please don't be mad at me baby".. now it's "oh you're mad again? Okay. I'm busy".

With your SGM comment, I thought the read was a total fucking waste for me. I can't even imagine a day when my wife would even let me finger her, let alone start leading her down the DEVI path.

  1. I lift on machines every morning. The gym I go to has a schedule they write on a white board with what exercises to do for that day. It seems to be working, I've lost weight and have gotten a lot stronger. I let myself get to 240's, I'm down to 211. I want to see under 200 in the next few months.

[–]pullypants0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

.. now it's "oh you're mad again? Okay. I'm busy".

Even this is far too much acknowledgement of her bullshit. She's a kid, smile at her amusing tantrums as they wash over you unaffected. They don't affect you, you're a rock.

The quality of sex will improve with your attraction and the wife thinking you're a prize. Or it may not, at which point you have to do something about it, either accept it and be a pussy the rest of your relationship, or move on. Otherwise nothing you do has any conviction, and she probably knows that.

Lifting: weights not machines. 200 lbs is still pretty fat, soz. I'm at 185 and I consider my self at least 15 lbs over my best weight. Big eye opener to improving is the reaction to my gains. She says she doesn't like muscles when I was fat, after half a year of stronglifts her hands are all over me, it's awesome.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah 200 is still fat. 211 is where I'm at agree fat. At least know I know it's unacceptable. Working on that one. It took a long time to get fat, I don't expect it to disappear overnight.

Congrats on the gains! My wife says the same things. I don't like muscles, blah blah. It's all a lie.

[–]Trekneck0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I lift on machines every morning. The gym I go to has a schedule they write on a white board with what exercises to do for that day. It seems to be working, I've lost weight and have gotten a lot stronger. I let myself get to 240's, I'm down to 211. I want to see under 200 in the next few months.

Glad to hear you're lifting actual weight and it's not just cardio. Just wanted to make sure you're on the right path here. You may want to get off the machines as your main lift, and get to some free weights or on SL5x5. Machines can't be 100% of your workout, they only go so far and for people like me, the fuck with already busted joints/shoulders.

Fuck you for making me realize this. Damn so true.

Don't let the truth hurt for long. Use it to move forward.

With your SGM comment, I thought the read was a total fucking waste for me. I can't even imagine a day when my wife would even let me finger her, let alone start leading her down the DEVI path.

The biggest thing I'm getting from your post and your comment is that there is a mindset problem. You've read the material, you're doing some lifting, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of firm belief in you that what you're doing is right. What is your end game? If your wife TRULY won't ever get to a place where she's up for whatever, and your game is 100% on point 6 months from now, what is your plan?

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The biggest thing I'm getting from your post and your comment is that there is a mindset problem. You've read the material, you're doing some lifting, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of firm belief in you that what you're doing is right. What is your end game? If your wife TRULY won't ever get to a place where she's up for whatever, and your game is 100% on point 6 months from now, what is your plan?

I have an abundance mentality concerning business. I need to realize that crosses over into relationships as well. My end game is to have a high SMV, continue my successful business, improve the relationship with my wife, and build a legacy to leave to my kid.

The 6 month question is hard. Just like /u/jacktenofhearts said, I may have f'ed up this relationship. I'm still in my early 30's, if it ends up that my wife will never be adventurous in the bedroom or even sexually receivable, I'd have the hard decision of ending the marriage versus what damage it would do to my toddler.

Right now (if it were 6 months from now), that decision would be much easier considering she verbally yells way inappropriate things at me in front of my young child. I consider them assaults versus shit tests and they're handled by me walking away from the situation or leaving the house. Recently I have began recording them on my smartphone using an app called cogi, who knows if I'll need them in the future or not.

[–]Redneck001Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I lift on machines every morning. The gym I go to has a schedule they write on a white board with what exercises to do for that day. It seems to be working, I've lost weight and have gotten a lot stronger. I let myself get to 240's, I'm down to 211. I want to see under 200 in the next few months.

Ding, ding! We have a winner, no more callers, please.

Other than anger and butthurt (which, like fitness, takes time to control), you're not at the point where you're turning your wife (or other women) on. Keep working on yourself. You didn't mention your height, but if you're not 6'2"+, you're not yet a head turner. Just liked working on your anger and butthurt, keep working on getting your body fat to a place where random women notice you.

Your fitness is like a switch. One day, you're invisible, next day, you're a prime specimen.

Work on establishing your frame and living in it, while simultaneously getting your body where you're the fittest man in every room you enter.

Then watch women's (and your wife, because she's a woman) reaction.

Slow down, figure out how to apply the basics, and watch your life improve. In 6 months, you'll be rocking life, and advising new guys.

Good luck, looking forward to reading your progress reports.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks /u/Redneck001 - Yeah I'm 5'11" so I'm fat. Looking forward to updating everyone. I'm taking it one step at a time so it will get better from here.

Thanks for the support.

[–]SepeanRed Beret2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

It's been a bit over a year for me, and it sounds like I started out with a marriage in a worse shape than yours (we were more at "disgusted" than "awkward").

After a few months of actual progress, things got good. And then they got better. And better. There was a rough patch when she found me on MRP, but now she's even gone RPW and in all aspects she's an awesome wife - sexually, aesthetically, romantically, domestically.

Get with the program. Work hard. Stick to it. Be humble and honest to yourself about the areas you need to change and improve. It will work.

Been doing well with redpill philosophy. Recently read A guide to the good life (stoicism) by William B Irvine.

Introspection, bro. "Doing well with redpill philosophy" is in stark contrast to what you describe in the rest of your post.

And I see very little of the stoic tranquility and unbriddled joy that you read about in A guide to the good life. Are you practicing any of it? How often do you do negative visualisations? How often are you being ascetic (cold showers, fasting, whatever)?

It doesn't fucking matter what you read if you don't take it to heart.

Working out continually every morning.

It's great that you have hobbies.

But don't kid yourself, except for lifting, working out is just a hobby. It's a good hobby, but so is motorcycle restoration.

There is practically no other way to build an alpha physique than to lift. And lifting is code for "I do heavy compound lifts 3 times per week and count my calories so I hit my macros". If you're lifting every day, you're doing it wrong.

And just a side note: there are a few sports that tax your strength sufficiently that if you spend a lot of hours over many years doing them and your diet is good, you don't need to lift - if you're one of those people, fine. But for the vast majority, who need results fast and/or don't work out all the time, lifting is mandatory.

Building a real estate empire (MAP).

Good for you, but this is beta. It's good beta, but don't expect to get any alpha privileges from it.

I say no problem, I take my raging hard on and go to my office.

Why do you feel the need to say "no problem"? "No problem" is something you say either to make the other person not feel bad about what they did.

Saying stuff like that is a clear sign that your frame is weak and you don't have outcome independence.

Guys dealing with rejection so often post that they say stuff like this. It's like they think the road to outcome independence is to tell their wife they are OI. Well, it's not.

If you wanted to watch your favorite TV show but it wasn't on this week. That's something you are probably OI about, and you woudn't feel the need to tell your wife "Turns out there's no X-Files tonight, but no problem." You'd just watch something else.

She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

You're butthurt. After telling her you have "no problem". It's adding insult to injury.

Later she starts talking about all the appointments/activities she needs me to support her at over the weekend. I let her know I don't know if I can make it due to work (Really, just don't want to go .. no pussy, no commitment).

What is going on here? What sort of activities does she need "support" for?

  • Moving heavy objects or something technical? That's generally ok, and dude, the way to sex is to be attractive, and being a strong guy with useful skills who gets stuff done and fixes shit is attractive.

  • Some shit you don't want to be dragged along to like buying flowers? A man with frame just says he doesn't want to do that. Not because of work, but because he just doesn't want to.

  • Is it some family event you should be participating in willingly but you're butthurt so you're framing it as something she needs "support" for? Stop being butthurt, it's unattractive. Be outcome independent, her rejection should not get to you so bad that you're moping and not doing stuff you would and should be doing.

I don't which it is, but I smell weak frame.

I tell her she has no reason to be mad at me because she asked me to leave.

This is not passing a shit test. You're trying to win an argument about who has the right to be mad. Brush it off. Use A&A or AM, keep the tone light and funny even when she's mad. Don't let her drag you into arguments.

And again, this is something you need to internalize. Of course there's an element of "fake it till you make it", but this is not just some verbal judo trick you need to memorize. The idea here is that you stop thinking about this as "who has a right be mad". You stop thinking about her being mad over something as actually being about that something. It's a test of your frame. Respond with frame, not with DEERing.

So anyway, I equated that happiness as commitment versus the sexual needs for a man. That if I don't have my needs met, there's no need of commitment.

That's sort of true, but that's the beta bucks deal. If you can't bring alpha, then it is take it or leave it. You can't just read about the red pill, opt out of BB and expect anything but MGTOW unless you alpha up.

I realize this is totally fucked, not sure how to unfuck.

The only thing fucked is your SMV, and the only way to unfuck is increasing your SMV. The bigger part of your SMV is your frame. Build it. Make it strong.

I want to say either fuck me the way I want or get the fuck out. However, I have a young toddler, if it weren't for that I wouldn't even be here right now.

Leaving her won't increase your SMV. It won't be better next time around.

You need to do some work on improving yourself. And that takes time. What you're talking about is quitting before you made an attempt to fix things. From MMSLP to BPP's 12 levels of dread, everywhere it says you need to do a lot of work before you drop that ultimatum.

And most likely you won't have to drop that ultimatum, because the work will improve your SMV and your wife will naturally want to have sex with you. A lot.

I've been where you are, and I understand the pain and frustration. But unlike the marriage counselling bullshit, MRP is a real fix. You'll become a strong man and regain your sense of masculinity. You'll work hard and smart at maximizing your alpha and your good beta, and your wife will respond to that with love, respect and attraction.

Lift and lead.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

You're right - I'm obviously NOT doing well with redpill philosophy. However, I don't feel the same can be said about stoicism. I'm an avid fan of audible and I went through the stoicism book twice. Negative visualizations are something I practice often. It's a very weird truth that imagining the worst things that can happen in your life will help you conquer them later. This is derived from the fact that everything you have is "on loan" from G-d, or whoever you believe in anyway.

Shit can always be worse. I've been fantastic at ensuring that emotion does not rule my logic and being virtuous by providing for my family. I try living every day as it were my last, but that's probably the hardest stoic principal to adapt. If you did every act in a day as it were your last time doing that act (meeting a friend, doing a report, etc), it becomes very taxing on the mind.

In real estate, especially, it's true that desiring the next thing is fruitless. When we desire the next house, or the next deal it is never fulfilling because there is a desire for the deal after that one. Rather, stoicism, basically says to button up your pants and be grateful for what you have. Ironicially, most of the stoics were very wealthy and involved in government (probably due to being virtuous).

The cold shower thing is not for me. Denying yourself things you enjoy is stoic. Forcing cold showers is ridiculous.

I'd totally disagree that real estate is beta. Look at Donald Trump. I go out and practice hard core negotation and sales in the real world on a day to day basis. I don't do it for other people, I do it for me. That seems pretty alpha in nature to me.

Obviously my frame is weak. Saying no problem or don't worry about it is beta as hell. It's the inverse of apologizing. I have no idea why I say that crap. Being OI means to STFU, thanks. Being butthurt was also a huge loss of frame.

That's sort of true, but that's the beta bucks deal. If you can't bring alpha, then it is take it or leave it. You can't just read about the red pill, opt out of BB and expect anything but MGTOW unless you alpha up.

You're right. This is my biggest hold up. I read here where you alpha guys just walk out of the bedroom when you don't get what you want. Then the next day you're hitting on the barista and could do whatever you want with her (some of you do). However, when you do get what you want you reward your wife. This is the same shit, I was just overt about it rather than STFU, correct?

The only thing fucked is your SMV, and the only way to unfuck is increasing your SMV. The bigger part of your SMV is your frame. Build it. Make it strong. You're right. My SMV is low. My wife's is lower. I take ownership. Regardless of anyone else's SMV, if I want to be the guy who demands sex on a daily basis, I need to make myself have a higher SMV. Out of the trifecta, I am lacking most in the lifting department. I need to get in shape. Health is attractive.

It's good to hear there are others who have been in as bad as a marriage as I have. Thanks for taking the time to reply. You and jackten are awesome.

[–]SepeanRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'd totally disagree that real estate is beta. Look at Donald Trump.

It's not real estate in particular, your job and financial success in general is a beta quality. It will not give her the tingles. Stop telling yourself that your success will help you with this. Your alpha is mostly behavior, some looks, some status (and we're talking the particular and rare sort of status that makes girl chase you), and very little else.

As men we take pride in our accomplishments and providing for our family, and it is natural to feel that we deserve sex in return. But it doesn't work that way for women. It doesn't turn them on. Be careful that you don't have a covert contract here, and be careful that you don't neglect building your alpha qualities because you're focused on your business.

I go out and practice hard core negotation and sales in the real world on a day to day basis.

Those skills will help you a lot. Begin thinking of your wife as a tough negotation opponent. You want her to buy in, but she's a tough sell, she's deceptive and she's trying to rattle you. And she's pretending she's just looking for beta (income, validation, sharing emotions, compliance) but really she also wants a lot of alpha (dominance, self investment, assertiveness, looks).

Saying no problem or don't worry about it is beta as hell. It's the inverse of apologizing. I have no idea why I say that crap. Being OI means to STFU, thanks. Being butthurt was also a huge loss of frame.

Think of it as negotiations. If you make someone a lowball offer and they say "no problem, I can work with that" or they get upset, you know you got them by the balls, right? They just signalled they're invested in getting the deal and you're going to make them bleed for it.

The guy who just shrugs it off, keeps the mood light and funny, then walks off and does something else; that guy signals he doesn't need the deal, he's confident that he can a better offer elsewhere, and he's selling something good.

This is the game you're playing with your wife, you just didn't know it. You're playing it in business, you need to play it at home too. And things are doubled up at home because the product she wants to buy is also a man with confidence and frame.

However, when you do get what you want you reward your wife. This is the same shit, I was just overt about it rather than STFU, correct?

Sort of, but there's more to it.

When you said you went to your office and later your wife came and asked you to come back to bed, I don't know what that was, but I'm guessing it was either a) she was ready for sex or b) you would normally be in bed at that time and your wife was worried you were upset. Either way, you're not doing it right.

After being rejected or having a fight, do exactly what you'd normally do. Don't be butthurt in the office instead of sleeping or turn down offered sex.

The stuff you turned down for the weekend, I don't know about that because I don't what you turned down. Can't help you without the details I asked for.

Jack wrote in this thread that you shouldn't get into an exchange of attention for sex with your wife, and I sort of agree with that, but there's another dimension to it, and that is what you want. If we just had sex it's nice to cuddle, but if she just rejected me I wouldn't be cuddling. If she's being a bitch I've got better stuff to do, but if she's pleasant company (and I don't let a few shit tests ruin that) then there's a lot of stuff I like doing with her. On one hand you want to be outcome independent and not negotiate attraction, on the other hand you have be invested in enjoying yourself and not do what you don't like. It's a difficult balance to strike, but with a strong a frame it gets easier and others can sense that it is genuine rather than fake and manipulative.

I need to get in shape. Health is attractive.

Saying it like that rises potential red flags for me.

It's about high muscle mass and low body fat.

It's not about cardio, functional strength, eating organic, or whatever.

And the fastest way by far to get high muscle mass and low body fat is doing heavy compound lifts and every day eating the right amount of proteins, carbs and fats (the amounts vary depending on whether you want to bulk or cut).

Everything else is either ineffective, irrelevant or counterproductive.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

As men we take pride in our accomplishments and providing for our family, and it is natural to feel that we deserve sex in return. But it doesn't work that way for women. It doesn't turn them on. Be careful that you don't have a covert contract here, and be careful that you don't neglect building your alpha qualities because you're focused on your business.

Should print this out and put it on the wall.

If we just had sex it's nice to cuddle, but if she just rejected me I wouldn't be cuddling. If she's being a bitch I've got better stuff to do, but if she's pleasant company (and I don't let a few shit tests ruin that) then there's a lot of stuff I like doing with her. On one hand you want to be outcome independent and not negotiate attraction, on the other hand you have be invested in enjoying yourself and not do what you don't like. It's a difficult balance to strike, but with a strong a frame it gets easier and others can sense that it is genuine rather than fake and manipulative.

It seems there's a line everyone has to decide upon. The decisions I made when I turned down sex after she hamster'ed me walking out of the room was wrong. Attending her function this weekend is something I would do anyway, so it's not right to hold it "hostage" as a price for sex.

And the fastest way by far to get high muscle mass and low body fat is doing heavy compound lifts and every day eating the right amount of proteins, carbs and fats (the amounts vary depending on whether you want to bulk or cut).

This is my biggest issue by far. I need to get visibly muscular. I already use myfitnesspal, but have no idea what my macros should be. I'm assuming /r/fitness is the right place to find out?

[–]SepeanRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, /r/fitness certainly has the info.

Basically you eat 0.8g protein per pound of bodyweight. Cut or bulk, doesn't matter.

For cutting you aim for 1lbs per week of weight loss (works out to 500 kcals below TDEE). For bulking you aim for 0.5lbs weight gain per week (works out to about 300 kcals above TDEE).

You determine your TDEE by weighing everything you eat, calculating the calories in it, weighing yourself every day, and tracking the moving average over 1 or 2 weeks. Good guide here https://www.reddit.com/r/leangains/comments/2rv09z/this_is_how_you_calculate_your_tdee/

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Are you an awkward dude? You say you're working out continually, but fatass Pam in HR says the same thing and that it's her 'genetics' that keeps her a disgusting beef goblin (couldn't be the 6k calories a day of pure shit right?).

If you don't have any level of awareness, game, or a hot body maybe you just skeeve your wife out.

[–]FearDearg2015Mod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I say no problem, I take my raging hard on and go to my office. She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

I literally hung my head when I read this bit, and couldn't read any more until I at least got this out of my system.

Take a look at discovery channel, any nature programme you like. Look out for instances where a female presents herself in a mating ritual, and subsequently gets rejected by the male. Maybe you'll find some, but those would be the exceptions, not the rule. Females control access to sex. Sure, maybe you could have followed her in, or just even escalated right there in your office. Maybe she would have rejected you again. So what? You just go back to what you were doing. Your rejection of her comes across as a punishment for her earlier rejection.

[–]Griever1141 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

My question is, when given repeated no's and her flat out covering herself, how can that not be taken as a "hard no." She completely shut him down. From every post/reading here, everyone usually says, if she gives a hard no then go do something productive. Which he did.

When she entered his office naked, she is controlling sex (her frame). By engaging, wouldnt he then be stuck in her frame (controlled sex).

She asks me to come lay down with her and I do.

She asks what I want to watch and I say I didn't come in here to watch TV.

I start undressing her, kissing, etc. She gets completely naked and then begins covering her boobs... Flag #1: soft no or doesnt want to do it

pulling away when I kiss, etc. Flag #2: another soft no

She says she's awkward.. I push through and continue kissing. She is now pulling away from kisses. Flag #3

Finally snaps and says this is too awkward and to get off. Flag #4 the hard no

Granted, if he does look like a neckbeard, i get her rejection and some of this can be disregarded. But she is doting sex like a carrot. I thought we were supposed to NOT jump like dogs through a hoop for sex. Just like we shouldnt accept starfish sex and walk out if they wont commit to the situation.

[–]rocknrollchuck1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

When you get a hard NO, you go do something else. When she shows up later naked and says "let's go," you are temporarily out of hard NO territory and should take full advantage of the situation. Remember, this is about being the best man you can be, but it's also about getting what you want. What's the use in using dread, walking away, doing something else if you are unwilling to go for it when she has a change of heart?

It does take some discernment to know how to proceed in any given situation, but in this situation it's pretty obvious. Maybe it wouldn't be if she was fully clothed, but she was naked. It's a no-brainer, but if you have been rejected enough it tends to cloud your judgment on what would otherwise be a pretty straight-forward choice.

You're not "jumping through hoops" if she does this. There is no hoop to jump through, only an obvious offer for sex.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes a huge mess up on my part. The story should have ended with a discovery channel type documentary on mating, but in the middle of my office.

I thought I was in frame, obviously I'm failing at this.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Now you know why we say don't have these discussions with women. Your wife totally gaslighted you about what happened and you just accepted it. You accepted HER frame that she is a long suffering "rape victim" and validated her emotions.

You want to know the really sick thing? If you actually HAD raped your wife in that moment- I mean just grabbed her and fucked the shit out of her before she even knew what was happening she would not have felt in her soul that this was rape. Nope- only the butthurt backing off of a beta male provider who is to NIIIICE to grab the woman and fuck some sense into her invokes that emotion.

I believe this is a Level 9 Dread Moment (sex is a requirement of marriage). Possibly even Level 10 (Fuck me or fuck you). I would have coldly explained to my wife that sex is a requirement of marriage and if she does not want to sex with you then you are not married. You sort of, kind of did that but you were hurt and that is perfectly understandable.

Since you are already in "therapy" perhaps this is a place the issue can be directly confronted? IF you can stay calm and rational and IF you have your level 9 Dread Demand in place- that is reasonable and simple and everybody who is reasonable and rational would agree with you then yes, you can unfuck this with or without therapy.

Your ONLY move is to back off as you have been doing. If you are 'not married' then I would give her no more attention than you would if you were divorced. That is, coordinate with the kids or whatever but the rest of the time I would be out day gaming. If you are even remotely decent looking you will have a girlfriend/plate/fuckbuddy within 2 weeks.

Hopefully you understand what has happened.

YOU HAVE BEEN FRIEND-ZONED BY YOUR OWN WIFE. Climb into bed. Cuddle me. Validate me. Your blue balls? All you want me is for sex!

All of her temper tantrum bullshit is because she wants her nice little Beta to behave and keep doing things for her. You are nothing but a simp, pathetic, beta orbiter in her mind. Why would she want to fuck that?

If that pisses you off then good. You need to break in your mind the unbreakable connection that you have to your wife. SHE needs to realize that her unbreakable connection- her chains- that she wrapped around you so tight you can barely breathe are not actually locked. The process is not instantaneous and usually takes a few months but you can step out of this cage any time you choose.

Like Jack explained, you need to own your hurt. Your wife is treating you with profound disrespect by inviting you into bed, getting naked and then turning you down like that. I would have taken my hard on straight to the strip club and bought a BJ right on the spot. Fuck her. Stop sublimating your legitimate feelings and desires.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Therapy won't get me anywhere, the therapist is blue pill and has already told my wife she should take sex off the table.

Friend zoned by my own wife, what a chump. It pisses me off. I need to continue bettering myself and increasing my SMV.

Jack also made a good point that every interaction isn't necessarily "If A then B" and it's more about the macro-situation versus the many micro transactions that happen within a day.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Take sex off the table? The most common advice- and the ONLY advice that most BP therapists give is to start having more sex.

Definitely disregard the previous idea and get a new therapist. Take sex off the table? How about you take your paycheck off the table. Fuck her. Fuck your therapist. Fuck all of society for sanctioning this hell.

All that said I would take sex- with the wife- off the table as well. Fuck her. Focus on YOU and focus on YOUR options. Seriously, what possible motivation could there be to stay faithful and loyal while you are repeatedly kicked in the balls by your "wife."

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Focus on YOU and focus on YOUR options. Seriously, what possible motivation could there be to stay faithful and loyal while you are repeatedly kicked in the balls by your "wife."

This is the point I'm at and you've hit the nail on the head.

I'm in the friend zone and my friend is a major bitch when it comes to anything sexual.

I'm taking this time to take advantage of friend zone benefits and leverage them into my MAP. Lose weight and gain muscle is #1 on the plate right now so that when or if my "friend" exits the marriage I am in a better place to get some plates.

[–]cj_aubreyRed Beret0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

I think perhaps "We're not going to bed, you're going to fuck me right here on my desk" might have been a better response. Still dominate but not sabotaging what you want.

She says she's awkward.. I push through and continue kissing. She is now pulling away from kisses. Finally snaps and says this is too awkward and to get off.

I'm currently having a problem with my wife associating my initiating with all the pressure i put her under for years. You sound aggressive like me. Might be a similar problem.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Yeah aggressive for sure, always have been. If I want something I go for it. How are you handling it?

[–]cj_aubreyRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

How are you handling it?

Posting about it in Own Your Shit, reading a lot mostly. Right now my wife associates my advances with pressure and stress. I think I need to put some time in where I initiate, she can decline, and there are no negative consequences at all. Once the pressure and butthurt are a distant memory, then I can move to sex denial -> emotional unavailability. Right now she just thinks I've swapped butthurt for emotional withdrawal and I believe that is a result me doing this wrong and going too fast.

EDIT: In the future I will be handling this in accordance with /u/jacktenofhearts 's comment above. The assessment there is completely consistent with what I have observed.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks, I see now I should have went for the offer after the hard no. It's a weird thing in life where a once fine marriage and sex life turns into the equivalence of a ship that's ready to hit an iceberg.

[–]pullypants0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Was also in a similar place. It got to be I couldn't even put a hand on her tit without her sex alarm going off. I've made it much more playful now, I'll tease and mess with her all the time and don't constantly follow up with a press. Can be really effective to get her going then leave her hanging.

She's used to the hands in various places now and used to it not always ending up as sex. The defences don't come up.

As an aside, we often focus on the reasons that make her want to have sex with us. We also have to pay attention to the reasons she doesn't. These can be silly like no lock on the door, smelly breath, asking at the wrong time, not wanting a vagina full of slop when you've a meeting in an hour. These are all free and easy to solve, but each one will result in a hard no. Fix this stuff.

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I'm at the stage where a hand on a boob = full on alarms. I need to take jack's advice and just realize this isn't happening for me.

[–]pullypants0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

..yet

[–]SexistFlyingPig0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is why there are 12 levels of dread: so you don't go from abstinence to divorce in one step.

So go follow the 12 steps of dread. Reading the other comments, it sounds like you're lifting and losing weight, which is great. Next step would be to upgrade your wardrobe and haircut. You talk about kicking ass at work: she doesn't see this. She doesn't want to fuck your job, she wants to want to fuck you, but you're not doing it for her. Your awesome job makes you more beta bucks, not more alpha fucks. That's the tricky part about MRP compared to TRP: you have to be both.

Good luck.

edit: acta non verba. You can't say "I have no problems getting other women." You have to show it and NOT talk about it, with dread.

[–]pullypants0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Your woman walks into your room naked while you have a boner, you jump on her right there. She says no, you get busy with something else. Declining only makes you look like a big huffy man baby.

Have you read the sidebar? You appear to be missing some of the fundamentals. I'd reccomend MMSLP as a good starting point for your situation, you look like a classic case.

She doesn't view you as a man, you're a pathetic, unattractive and frankly repulsive needy man baby. This is what you need to change before she will want to have sex with you.

This is what you need ultimately, you can't negotiate sex, you can't obligate her into sex, you can pressure her into sex short term, but she won't like it. This is where the 'weird' feeling she has comes from, she's emotionally connected but unnatracted to you. Women can often find this hard to articulate, or she might just be sparing your feelings.

Read, learn, man up, stop getting owned by your wife.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Kind of reads like a cad post that's all talk, no. Action.

If you want to go hard core, you have to own it, don't do it half assed, focus on what you want, and stop veering off in the power play

[–]Griever1140 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

We currently go to this marriage counselor (started before I found the red pill) who said that she needs to be included in my business life more to make her feel happy.

Ummm, wtf? Thats bullshit

[–]RealEstateRockstar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

pre-Red pill. The counselor is bluepill 100%. Gives examples of how he lets his wife control finances, do whatever she wants while he works all the time, no budget, etc.

He has even suggested my wife take sex off the table for a month.

It's almost over, thank G-d.



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